High-Protein Diet: How Much Protein Do You Need for Muscle and Longevity?

00:00:00: Just on the question of how much protein a person needs, yeah.

00:00:02: Opinions really, really differ in that.

00:00:05: And now protein is really good again.

00:00:06: Now voices are getting loud again That it's bad.

00:00:08: So its just wild ride as always.

00:00:10: I watched a few videos Of Markus Ruhl Who ate a kilogram of protein A day In his prime.

00:00:15: Is

00:00:16: that such a strong MTR activation?

00:00:18: That It´s Bad ?

00:00:19: I think most people don't even hit that target.

00:00:22: The body needs about zero point eight grams per kilogram.

00:00:25: You should be able to do that With the caveat Yeah but then you're not allowed To move Like.

00:00:34: Hello and welcome to a new episode of Beyond Lifespan for everyone watching.

00:00:39: today, we're sitting in the New Environment.

00:00:41: Today everything's a bit brighter right Max?

00:00:45: True.

00:00:45: And it also feels better now on the podcast To have daylight, fresh air that hopefully makes episodes better Now.

00:00:55: Yeah I think The last podcast room was very small.

00:00:58: So We want try this.

00:01:00: And also now in

00:01:01: the background, you can see the Werksviertel and Munich Osbahnhof.

00:01:06: Today weather is not so good but maybe better next time.

00:01:09: Exactly today we're talking about high protein right?

00:01:13: So just about protein in general.

00:01:15: It's also become a very strong trend In last few years.

00:01:19: I'd say it has pretty much gone through the roof.

00:01:22: If go into supermarket today You find things everywhere that at least Say high protein on them, right?

00:01:28: Whether extra protein is somehow added or in there that remains to be seen.

00:01:32: We can talk about that again later.

00:01:34: There's pasta High Protein from Barilla for example with that yellow packaging.

00:01:40: Every yogurt every drink you can buy every cheese You Can Buy.

00:01:45: Everywhere there's the normal version and The Extra protein Version.

00:01:50: now even salami sticks are high protein.

00:01:52: Yeah It's unbelievable.

00:01:54: And then It's also the case that many, let's say dishes or foods that already naturally have a lot of protein.

00:02:03: They've also gone to the trouble of redesigning them writing extra on them.

00:02:09: so it is high-protein food and product.

00:02:14: The landscape in Reves and Edikas has changed quite a bit Towards towards high protein.

00:02:23: There are even separate sections and that's exactly what we want to talk about a bit today.

00:02:27: How did it come to this?

00:02:28: Why is it so popular?

00:02:29: Are there any dangers associated with it or Is it just good?

00:02:33: right, That would be A nice change if something was only Good in medicine But will justify that Today?

00:02:41: What's your take on This crazy hype?

00:02:45: Yeah I mean So yeah you see It everywhere Right.

00:02:47: You also hear more and more voices now saying, yeah no it's actually not that good at all.

00:02:51: So its been like with every hype now in between.

00:02:54: fats were really bad.

00:02:55: then fat was again.

00:02:57: protein wasn't so good either because somehow people age faster.

00:03:01: It's about these fasting topics right?

00:03:05: And now protein is really good again.

00:03:07: Now voices are getting loud again but it's just a wild ride.

00:03:10: as always I think today is just clearing things up.

00:03:14: what we know or don't.

00:03:15: Um, is it good now?

00:03:17: Is it bad.

00:03:18: Now this something in between and yeah

00:03:22: That's the.

00:03:23: that's what we want to find out a bit more about today.

00:03:24: I mean where does it all come from?

00:03:26: right In the end?

00:03:27: i think It also comes From The diet scene from the big weight loss hype And the explanation behind it is Also relatively logical.

00:03:36: if you eat a lot of protein or Protein in general it just fills You up much better.

00:03:41: then if you eat a normal portion of something or something very, very high in carbs like a portion of pasta.

00:03:48: Then something very high and protein is just more filling.

00:03:52: it also keeps you full longer And ultimately leads to eating less than ideally losing weight.

00:04:00: That's where all kind started.

00:04:02: It found its way into all kinds of shakes when it's also about losing weight and even more original than for weight loss.

00:04:11: It was four muscle building, right?

00:04:14: So in the classic gym scene and fitness studios in bodybuilding protein has been a very big topic for a long time.

00:04:23: I watched a few videos of Marcos Ruhl who said that he used to eat one kilogram of protein a day in his prime.

00:04:30: For anyone doesn't know marcus ruhl so

00:04:35: protein shake.

00:04:37: You know that one?

00:04:37: No, I don't know that.

00:04:38: yeah he

00:04:39: really took tuna and mixed it with all kinds of other things.

00:04:41: then added pepper salt blended right like a hundred grams or protein in one shape.

00:04:49: so anyone who hasn't seen It Really has to watch the video on YouTube is really you can learn something there

00:04:54: Right?

00:04:54: And Then you probably also stumble across The Video Where He Talks About Eating Up To Yeah One Thousand Grams Of Protein A Day In Peak Times.

00:05:02: We'll talk about Daily Protein Goals Again Later Today And there you can see how many magnitudes higher Marcos Ruhl was.

00:05:11: It's definitely very, very amusing but that is also where it comes from.

00:05:15: so like they are two camps right?

00:05:17: The ones who absolutely want to build muscle the others mainly want lose weight.

00:05:22: one of course just go hand in hand with other High protein products, if you just look at the development in recent years we looked up a few numbers from twenty-twenty one to twenty two alone.

00:05:36: The entire high protein market increased by over twenty percent so it grew by over Twenty percent.

00:05:42: I think that's already very impressive for such A general trend In supermarkets especially right?

00:05:51: Yeah But you can feel it too Right.

00:05:52: i mean It's not Just the existing Products.

00:05:54: You Also See Things Like More Nutrition Landing in Supermarkets Now And they've grown incredibly fast, right?

00:06:01: Exactly with this angle of saying consume more protein then you'll be less hungry.

00:06:09: You also eat less and can potentially save on sugar because those are relatively sweet things that substitute products ideally for sweets.

00:06:24: in that respect You notice it, I think too.

00:06:27: It's been huge in recent years and three years ago i would have never thought that we'd be this far.

00:06:36: so many different protein powders in supermarkets.

00:06:38: you go into a supermarket doesn't matter which one all kinds of varieties.

00:06:42: Aldi has its own brand little probably two but Reve the selection is huge.

00:06:51: Whole shelves, I mean.

00:06:52: back in the day there used to be like five different powders standing in one row and today There's like a whole shelf where only different high protein products are Standing.

00:07:02: And not just protein powder also thirty-five different bars and drinks and shakes and so on and so forth.

00:07:08: But yeah that's good point too with more nutrition.

00:07:10: One of the founders was Christian Wolf right?

00:07:12: He is very strong advocate for wolf protein fasting In case anyone has heard of that.

00:07:18: The science behind it is relatively simple, right?

00:07:20: I mean eat more protein then you're less hungry for other things and Then you lose weight because in the end You take in fewer calories eat less And then the net balance Is just negative and the weight goes down.

00:07:35: So that's nothing crazy.

00:07:36: It's also nothing new Right.

00:07:38: people knew that one hundred years ago too.

00:07:40: so in that respect It's just come back into fashion.

00:07:44: but Protein itself is of course, I mean completely independent of the trend.

00:07:50: Completely independent off the hype already very important for the body right?

00:07:54: You need it for all kinds different things.

00:07:56: you needed muscles or organs enzymes hormones antibodies immune defense and so on.

00:08:03: that's constantly being recycled but we also need a certain Intake, right?

00:08:10: I mean you need a certain amount of protein daily and you can cover that in different ways.

00:08:14: And just on the question how much protein does a person needs... How much protein Does The Body Need?

00:08:21: Opinions already differ very widely On That.

00:08:24: It starts at like zero point five or zero point six.

00:08:27: There are few recommendations sometimes from the WHO Sometimes From DGE Where People Actually Pretty Much Agree By Now.

00:08:36: But Yeah!

00:08:37: How Do You See

00:08:37: it?!

00:08:38: Yeah, exactly.

00:08:39: I mean the DGE...I still don't really understand what they actually do.

00:08:42: all day There are so many examples where you ask yourself okay?

00:08:45: What're guys actually

00:08:46: doing?".

00:08:46: I think the egg thing also made a big round right that You should only eat one egg or two eggs per week.

00:08:51: i dont even remember

00:08:52: because otherwise That's

00:08:54: bad for- what

00:08:55: it based on.

00:08:56: no idea Really just thrown out there.

00:09:00: So its really wild.

00:09:02: but now back to proteins.

00:09:06: The DGE says So, or rather generally it's been established and this was found out in recent decades.

00:09:13: Or actually the last century... Okay!

00:09:15: The body needs about zero point eight grams per kilogram every day so that doesn't break down And there is a study on that.

00:09:25: They also really made sure these people they tested it with didn't move much.

00:09:30: That means they tried to find what their minimum is.

00:09:34: We're talking about zero-point-eight grams And that is admittedly also what's sort of prescribed by most institutions, state institutions.

00:09:43: You should manage that with the caveat if you look at it more closely.

00:09:48: yeah actually your not allowed to move then though.

00:09:51: so If u just lie around all day Then fine maybe That could be enough for maintenance but probably Not even then because The body then decides To break down muscle Because It realizes ok Doesn't need it right now.

00:10:03: So Even than you Probably Need More.

00:10:06: But you just need that to maintain cellular processes at all, to stay healthy in any way.

00:10:12: And if you calculate that zero point eight grams per kilogram?

00:10:15: That's actually not even incredibly little is it?

00:10:17: I mean... You already need like one protein rich meal a day To somehow manage that!

00:10:22: I think the vast majority don't even hit that target

00:10:25: right?!

00:10:26: An eighty kilo person should then get sixty four grams of protein.

00:10:35: So many mainly eat ready meals, which?

00:10:38: or pasta right?

00:10:40: Which also contain a bit of protein.

00:10:42: I think it's about seven eight grams per one hundred grams

00:10:46: Exactly exactly.

00:10:47: and then you might end up with maybe fifteen grams of protein per meal.

00:10:50: if You may be have A meat sauce or something with It where there is Maybe a bit Of beef in it Then you can increase that.

00:10:56: but yeah even That Is actually Something that is already i Think too high of a stretch for very Very Many people unfortunately

00:11:04: Exactly, and on the flip side of course.

00:11:05: The people who eat a lot generally eat a Lot or also go to McDonald's or whatever.

00:11:09: they often manage extremely high amounts Of protein right but then you have to look at okay?

00:11:14: It's also the way you get your protein Right.

00:11:16: that's all so relevant in someway?

00:11:18: Definitely yes.

00:11:19: So these zero point eight grams are off-course way too low.

00:11:23: I think we'll go into it a bit more later.

00:11:26: What what should be necessary how we would handle that in practice?

00:11:30: But in any case way way too little And you should definitely consume more than that.

00:11:36: That's the important thing

00:11:37: Yeah, and I think what What?

00:11:41: You should take away from this is protein Is super-super important for all kinds of bodily functions.

00:11:45: protein It's not just muscle but also organs hormones immune defense immune system and so on and so forth and You can also have too little protein right.

00:11:54: So we only ever talk about deficiencies in micronutrients when it comes to vitamin D When it comes omega three.

00:12:00: But you can just as easily have a deficiency in protein and that's also bad.

00:12:04: Because, because protein is so abundant in the body That-that the deficiency then has an effect on every nook and cranny And you start to feel it Exactly Now.

00:12:14: uh A question that Has Also Come Up Every now & Then On The Podcast.

00:12:19: We Had An Episode Once Where we Talked About Muscles And Then Two Or Three People Got In Touch And Said Well but You Always Talk about High Protein.

00:12:30: But now we know that there are also studies where they looked at people who eat a lot of protein, especially animal protein.

00:12:38: That's all so bad for the body.

00:12:41: They saw consequences over years and decades when it comes to cardiovascular system or other diseases like heart attack or stroke.

00:12:53: All occurred more frequently.

00:12:56: There is actually a confounder Because when you do these studies, you don't dictate to people how they have to consume their protein.

00:13:05: How that should be composed?

00:13:07: That it may preferably be organic beef and not a piece of sausage or cold cuts from the butcher... ...or supermarket or something highly processed.

00:13:20: And that is actually the confounder When we try to remove that—and this isn't easy Because in the end, the protein content is tracked and not necessarily what people eat.

00:13:31: And that's why animal protein is very often put in a bad light... ...and that's not one hundred percent because animal protein might not be quite as healthy as plant protein but it's because of how people consume their proteins through many processed products.

00:13:50: You don't have that problem as much with plant proteins because plants naturally contain other substances, right?

00:13:56: So polyphenols, flavonoids.

00:13:58: So secondary plant substances are in there.

00:14:01: we have fiber in their which also has a positive effect on digestion and some cases but of course also lowers the availability of protein abit at the same time.

00:14:10: That's something you should keep in mind.

00:14:13: so this study context doesn't tell the whole truth Because Animal protein often coming from processed products and process.

00:14:22: Products are naturally bad, right?

00:14:24: I think we don't need to philosophize about that for hours.

00:14:27: Right?

00:14:28: yeah totally exactly.

00:14:29: And the other topic is then bioavailability.

00:14:32: so quality amino acid profile.

00:14:34: Yeah.

00:14:34: So i mean i think most people have heard That before right?

00:14:37: it's very well known that animal Protein tends To be more bio available and actually quite significantly there Are different ways you can classify.

00:14:50: In the end they are scores, right?

00:14:52: And so there's an old score called PDCAAS.

00:14:59: I unfortunately forgot what exactly that stands for...

00:15:01: I was just about to ask that!

00:15:02: Yeah, exactly!

00:15:04: Unfortunately didn't write it down either..I wrote it down again yesterday specifically and then i probably deleted it again.

00:15:08: in any case not that important.

00:15:10: you don't even necessarily need to know that ..in the end its a bit about okay how well can your body process this product?

00:15:18: And that would basically, they look at the stool afterwards and see okay how much of it was actually absorbed.

00:15:24: to put a very simply.

00:15:25: That's sort of the old way of doing things like whey protein.

00:15:29: eggs perform incredibly well there.

00:15:32: They are top-of-the-score at one point zero.

00:15:35: That is basically one hundred percent right?

00:15:37: Then after that comes soy which works pretty well among plant proteins too Also interesting because it also has this full amino acid profile, which is of course incredibly important for you to really absorb everything.

00:15:51: Right?

00:15:52: And that's a huge difference also too other plant proteins.

00:15:56: beef is then at about zero point nine two.

00:15:59: P protein is already at zero points seven to zero point eight and then he keeps going down.

00:16:03: rice zero point five.

00:16:04: wheat zero point four.

00:16:06: so You'll know if you get protein from pasta Then you don't have the possibility Right, so that's maybe a bit of takeaway.

00:16:17: And today people tend to work with the D I A S That's just slightly more optimized value where they look more closely at okay what is the composition?

00:16:26: Of this protein?

00:16:27: how can The body use it and so on and It works a bit differently the score.

00:16:33: We don't need to go that deep into now.

00:16:34: but milk protein for example Is also right at the top and way with one point one.

00:16:39: eggs Also come in at one point.

00:16:41: Soy is then at zero point nine there.

00:16:43: You can already see, okay?

00:16:44: That's a bit more meaningful if necessary right but still very good.

00:16:47: P zero point eight wheat than zero point four.

00:16:50: Right so you can already C. Okay, you do have to look a bit Because let's just say only consume pea protein.

00:16:58: Then the amounts also have to be quite different.

00:17:01: So we're not talking about the same amount here as with whey protein.

00:17:04: You simply have to consume more To achieve the same effect.

00:17:09: that doesn't mean plant protein is worse.

00:17:12: It just means that you need more volume, right?

00:17:15: Similar to how it is with nutrients.

00:17:17: in the end of course if you eat a piece of meat then you have an extremely high nutrient density.

00:17:22: If You now Eat A mix Of broccoli cauliflower and whatever The Nutrient Density Is Simply Much Lower Right.

00:17:27: So You Need much More Volume For The Same Outcome.

00:17:31: It Makes Sense.

00:17:32: And Its The Same With Iron.

00:17:33: I Think That's Also Good Example.

00:17:35: Animal Iron Heme.

00:17:36: Iron Is Simply Absorbed Much Better Than Plant Based Iron Exactly.

00:17:40: Iron is also a good example, right?

00:17:43: So animal iron, heme iron is simply absorbed much better than plant-based iron.

00:17:47: and there the difference is bigger with protein.

00:17:49: because if we stick to an example you mentioned earlier P protein has a score of zero point eight and milk protein have one point two.

00:17:57: that's fifty percent different.

00:18:07: consume milk protein, right?

00:18:09: So you just have to take that into account with the amounts.

00:18:13: and When we talk about this intake of zero point eight grams per kilo of body weight or one gram, you're actually always talking what gets into the body and practically needs.

00:18:26: You also have to take that into account with absorption if you eat a predominantly plant-based diet depending on how you eat.

00:18:34: Wheat is particularly bad compared to beef milk protein or whey.

00:18:41: That you just take that into account and maybe it's a rough calculation.

00:18:44: I don't think anyone necessarily has to go And check how much protein they're consuming every day of their life?

00:18:50: i think if You look into it A bit then at some point, you get a pretty good feel for It and uh...I can roughly say in my head yeah Last week was Pretty Good!

00:18:58: And this Week wasn't so good right.

00:19:00: So that you Just keep an eye on it Find out a bit more.

00:19:07: So

00:19:08: PDC AAS, but today the gold standard is DI AAS and That's all it is.

00:19:15: so at the end of the day not every gram of protein is worth the same And you should Keep that in mind now when it comes to protein intake.

00:19:26: I also find it quite exciting because There used to be studies that also said Yeah if you want to optimize protein distribution then ideally You have to distribute it throughout the day because there's no point in drinking a tuna shake like Marcos Ruel with, like one hundred grams of protein.

00:19:47: Because the body can't necessarily do anything with those one-hundred grams of proteins all at once right?

00:19:52: Instead it would be better if you drank half the Shake In The Morning and Half At Lunch.

00:19:57: Marcus Ruel did that anyway!

00:19:58: Right?!

00:19:59: Because If You Consume One Thousand Grams Of Protein A Day Then You Have To Distribute It Throughout The Day.

00:20:03: Anyway So...In The End It Probably Worked Out.

00:20:05: Anyway I think the idea behind it is simply that you shouldn't be under the illusion, That you can ideally cover your protein with one meal a day.

00:20:15: But this distribution is also better right?

00:20:19: Exactly so.

00:20:19: emphasis on better Right.

00:20:21: i mean of course there are people who manage With One Meal A Day.

00:20:23: There Are These OMAD People One Meals A Day And They Really Have To Manage Roughly One Hundred Grams In That One Meel Or Manage Plus.

00:20:32: I Do Think That It Somehow Works Then The Body Somehow adapts, but of course it's not ideal.

00:20:37: And we're talking about the ideal here and there.

00:20:40: You should be between twenty to forty grams per meal so that you simply Don't overwhelm the digestive system So that it can really utilize everything you put in right?

00:20:49: That's-that's The takeaway...in the end!

00:20:53: I think many people have already heard these magic.

00:20:56: thirty grams are actually a bit Of a golden rule..and that you should simply distribute over several meals.

00:21:05: And then I think you can also easily imagine managing to get thirty, thirty grams in the morning like thirty grams at lunch.

00:21:11: Thirty grams in evening and then your already had a level.

00:21:13: that's enough for most people right?

00:21:16: Also what is actually already ideal?

00:21:18: Right What do eat there?

00:21:20: i'll leave upto everyone.

00:21:22: but um That should always be goal.

00:21:25: bit of benchmark those thirty grams

00:21:27: Yeah!

00:21:29: A few high quality sources.

00:21:31: You could call them by name Maybe a little, um background.

00:21:38: If you go to the supermarket and look at quark or Topfen as they say in Austria then there's also this forty percent top from the twenty percent of them And that is some kind of special low fat top and their.

00:21:51: it basically the case that the leanest Also has the highest protein content right?

00:21:56: The texture might be the most difficult in quotation marks because its very dry.

00:22:01: But basically a low-fat topfen or a low fat milk, they all have higher protein content than the OG products let's say.

00:22:10: And lean meat is good fish are good but as I said quality always very important right?

00:22:16: So you should it better to eat meat less often week and high quality meet.

00:22:21: instead then take the cheapest.

00:22:23: you can find somewhere in supermarket where maybe red number one still on outside of packaging.

00:22:31: That's also only in Germany, right?

00:22:32: But I actually think it is quite good that you can at least see how the animals were kept and to make a slightly more informed decision about where their quality was.

00:22:42: It had huge impact!

00:22:43: They really hit those cheap meat providers hard... ...and they have a significant drop-in sales and had to adapt so.. ..it changed the market from what i've seen.

00:22:55: but in restaurants of course still mostly get cheap meat even in good restaurants, unfortunately quite often.

00:23:02: Yeah that's probably also due to the psychology behind it right?

00:23:06: Because you always know if you have like three or four things to choose from then very rarely choose well... The cheapest and lowest quality And very rarely most expensive.

00:23:21: That is why I think there was a shift from category one meat to two and maybe more towards category three just so you feel good about it in the end and think okay that extra euro or two, three depending on how big this piece is worth to me.

00:23:36: So probably psychologically explainable but there's also a physiologically sensible reason because good products have significantly higher nutrient content better profile.

00:23:53: if an animal had a much more varied diet, also ate some fresh stuff or grass like with grass-fed beef.

00:24:01: Then in the end that's also better for you right because there are better nutrients in there we can absorb them well and so on and so forth.

00:24:08: And when it comes to plant based things then legumes are pretty good.

00:24:12: soy specifically Because It Also Has Very Very Good Bioavailability Right That'S Probably The Number One.

00:24:17: When It Comes To Converting Plant Protein Into Bioavailable Form Than Soy Is Pretty Good.

00:24:23: But yeah, there are plenty of alternatives.

00:24:25: How do you see the estrogen debate?

00:24:28: Yeah exactly soy and estrogen is also a big topic right because people used to say yeah so that has an effect on the estrogen receptor studies also go a bit in both directions.

00:24:40: So sometimes something comes out And sometimes nothing comes out Right!

00:24:45: That means I don't think You have to live solely On Soy just Because you Have some risk factors In one direction or another.

00:24:53: There are many who have risk factors for breast cancer and so on, maybe you shouldn't overdo it there.

00:25:00: But I think if we're just down to soy that had some crazy receptor effects... Soy is already very widely consumed right?

00:25:08: Then you would see large cohort effect too!

00:25:24: No, it's just not consistent right.

00:25:26: so if you find something sometimes and some times nothing then the significance in the end is also meager.

00:25:32: I mean not zero because otherwise they wouldn't have found that in some studies.

00:25:37: but i think we shouldn't always be so definitive about everything Just because a study comes out that way Right?

00:25:45: You naturally tend to Because If you've decided for yourself That soy is bad Then of course take all Of that as confirmation And Everything else Is Always Bad.

00:25:52: But Like with everything, you should make an effort to understand both sides.

00:25:59: Now we are... We talk very often about longevity and I can still remember the book is already old now.

00:26:08: David Sinclair's lifespan has been six years old right?

00:26:11: It came out in twenty nineteen.

00:26:12: Yeah

00:26:13: it was pretty much exactly six years.

00:26:15: And there he also talked about these longevity pathways, right?

00:26:18: About AMPK and among other things.

00:26:21: Also about MTOR specifically autophagy.

00:26:23: with MTOR they said yeah MTOR if you want to grow old or live long then you have to keep MTOR as low as possible.

00:26:32: protein is a very potent activator of MTOR so ask yourself well how do A & B fit together?

00:26:41: That's also a difficult question because you can't really resolve it completely, right?

00:26:46: No.

00:26:46: You can't solve it... ...because of course its true to certain extent.

00:26:49: I mean these Rappamycin studies for example which are very closely linked with MTOR.

00:26:54: It is an MTOR inhibitor.

00:26:57: They were quite clear at least in animals.

00:27:00: So there definitely something to it For sure.

00:27:04: Now the only questions if you eat high protein now and let say consume protein in three meals per day Is that really such a strong MTOR activation?

00:27:13: That it's bad?

00:27:14: and Do you have to make sure every day that MTOR is as low as possible constantly, right?

00:27:20: or are these peaks allowed?

00:27:23: And The way we've interpreted the data?

00:27:26: from my point of view It's not like MTORs bad per se.

00:27:32: You need MTOR too.

00:27:33: You also need MTR for muscle building Also to prevent muscle loss.

00:27:36: Right those are all so many super relevant topics And also topics that are much, much more relevant in humans than in rodents for example because their muscle wasting and the risk of falling.

00:27:47: That goes with it isn't as big of a not as bigger killer is in humans right?

00:28:09: We can't translate that exactly anyway.

00:28:13: And there you have to see our bodies are much more complex, right?

00:28:18: Many more mechanisms at play here and from my point of view... ...there's no really conclusive data.

00:28:29: preventing MTOR activation is actually good.

00:28:34: I don't believe we should do intermittent fasting every day forever.

00:28:39: I think that can make sense for a while.

00:28:41: I also think fasting now and then, maybe to have an MTOR reset but i don't believe the data supports it makes sense just not to activate MTOR.

00:28:55: How do you see this?

00:28:59: Maybe two points.

00:29:00: these MTOR studies on mice... I wouldn't say if those had been mice in natural environment But they were mice in lab Right where you also.

00:29:09: so Even if a lab mouse has osteoporosis then or would have these classic aging effects in A mouse they wouldn't really carry that much weight right?

00:29:19: In humans like You said, They do.

00:29:21: Because we are actually active even If nowadays That's sometimes not the case anymore because you sit So much during The day.

00:29:26: but basically We're Actually relatively very Active Species and Like to move And as soon As that Factor is gone In the end, if we can't move any more than things go downhill even faster.

00:29:40: Right?

00:29:42: If you then break something or have a hip fracture and so on and so forth that means first of all You can translate that at all And um...and Then I see it exactly The same way you do.

00:29:53: yeah probably the best thing is to Have different phases right.

00:29:57: intermittent fasting Is a good idea for many.

00:29:59: For me It's not A Good Idea For many others, it might not necessarily be a good idea either.

00:30:04: You just have to look individually to see if somehow fits in right now or not but also not forever and don't start once.

00:30:13: do that for ever.

00:30:14: you can give the body break still make sure hit your protein target because what is this?

00:30:23: so I think myself So so many studies are coming out where we know that muscle strength is so important and muscle mass Is so important especially in old age when it declines?

00:30:33: Yeah, how?

00:30:34: so for me These two research findings.

00:30:37: Are not so not so easy to reconcile right because we're now somehow In humans We will never even have these these empty or results Because you'd have to feed people lotus rapamycin under very strict conditions For forty fifty years to somehow no if they really live longer or not.

00:30:52: I believe that in the end the effect also simply cancels out.

00:30:56: And then you're better off having more muscle mass in old age and accepting a little bit of MTR activation for it?

00:31:03: Yeah, or put another way what's the point of living three years longer if your just...

00:31:08: Having no fun!

00:31:10: So I think that is huge difference that we always have to see.

00:31:13: compared animals they stand on four legs.

00:31:16: That is just something completely different, right?

00:31:18: They don't have the problem of becoming frail as quickly.

00:31:21: As a human who stands on two legs and also falls from higher up let's say Right um And-and also break something more quickly.

00:31:28: that means Yeah.

00:31:30: From my point of view, that's not translatable and that's why I'm Also so incredibly curious to see what comes out of Rappamycin in The long term because honestly i Don't believe in Rappomycin either that it will really be such A real longevity drug In humans but only an individual cases where the metabolism Is also bad again ,right ?That means We're already in prediabetes and so on.

00:31:48: Then I think that can make a lot of sense over few years, but does it really makes sense for everyone?

00:31:53: Just don't think so either right?

00:31:55: It's just again super individual?

00:31:58: Exactly no.

00:31:58: And what is also an anecdote i think about these mTOR studies In animals ,I Think there was Also A limiting factor Which Is why the data is also not particularly easy to interpret.

00:32:07: ?is That in These Studies The mice lifted I think twenty two degrees Celsius which For mice de facto means constant stress?

00:32:15: That means then the question is, okay.

00:32:17: Do you have a lower protein diet?

00:32:20: Is that than better than a higher protein diet right now?

00:32:22: I would claim that if you consume more carbohydrates You are first of all most stress-free Right.

00:32:26: That's first of All good against stress right and also precisely against such issues.

00:32:31: That means yeah.

00:32:32: So it's also another one Of those of those confounders but also somehow comes in And says ok is this data really that meaningful?

00:32:38: hard to say right

00:32:39: here.

00:32:41: Walter Longo Then Also joined his discussion.

00:32:44: He might be familiar to some from the topic of fasting mimicking diets.

00:32:48: Yes, Val de Longo also kind of co-founded that and he then said yes... ...he is a big fan such as life stage approach where you say okay epidemiologically see especially people in an older age.

00:33:05: what do you define as old age now right?

00:33:07: That can be fifty for some seventy four others.

00:33:10: i think you can already start somewhere in the range of fifty sixty maybe ramping up your protein intake a bit.

00:33:16: and that's where valter longo said he thinks it makes sense to uh ramp-up protein intake especially in old age because you benefit a bit more from it.

00:33:25: then right, He thinks it makes sense above all to postpone that,to the later phase of life.

00:33:41: Depends right?

00:33:43: I think too myself...I mean in the end if i then- If like go to the gym and do strength training Then also have pay attention an adequate protein intake but than body can utilize it That is big difference!

00:33:56: I just means..If a desk job all day And don't do any sports in my free time either Then it doesn't make sense to eat one hundred fifty grams of protein a day.

00:34:05: right if i weigh eighty kilos.

00:34:06: so you always have to say that too.

00:34:08: That is also dependent on the activity uh level that you have yourself.

00:34:13: um, that shouldn't be generalized.

00:34:16: now protein target.

00:34:19: at the beginning.

00:34:19: we already teased briefly.

00:34:20: there are these recommendations with zero point eight grams per kilogram of body weight.

00:34:25: but even who says for example well Up to sixty five, it should be zero point eight grams and from sixty-five.

00:34:31: It should ideally already be one gram.

00:34:33: So they also take this life stage approach into account a bit by saying that in old age protein intake is a bit more important than in younger years And They've done studies on that of course Because there is this criticism That we also mentioned at the beginning.

00:34:52: and where?

00:34:53: We would also agree that this zero point eighth is too low right Simply because it might be just barely enough, but its not optimal.

00:35:03: Normal is not optimal.

00:35:04: It's kind of the exact same thing with lab values.

00:35:07: I think you also have to set the ideal target a bit higher and there are data on that saying okay The ideal target somewhere in range from one point two to one point six grams per kilogram of body weight And at some points A kind of plateau is practically reached right beyond which more than this one point six grams per kilogram of body weight didn't really bring any additional benefit.

00:35:34: And the body doesn't have a crazy use for it either.

00:35:37: if you maybe leave competitive sports aside, right?

00:35:39: If you assume normal hobby activity level or amateur activity level then yeah... The benefits just stops at some point

00:35:50: Exactly, and I mean then the benefit is of course still there potentially because you say okay You want to lose weight?

00:35:54: And you just want to have this satiety effect.

00:35:57: but de facto Yeah The body can't really use that as protein anymore.

00:36:03: Then it gets converted.

00:36:04: That means you consume more calories in the end right?

00:36:11: But It seems like its not bad either.

00:36:17: You could only theoretically okay yeah if you shift your diet so heavily towards protein.

00:36:22: Then you might cut back on fiber right in return or carbs altogether that it could of course have negative effects, but theoretically this high amount of protein doesn't have a bad effect on the body now.

00:36:36: well maybe if you leave digestion aside I mean especially when Consume a lot.

00:36:41: A lot of protein and do it so suddenly.

00:36:44: if I ate sixty grams before now, It's suddenly one hundred twenty or one hundred fifty Then you definitely noticed that

00:36:51: yeah exactly You're less hungry then?

00:36:52: And then then fiber suffers first of all because Yeah, you just can't manage to consume that much volume anymore and you need volume for that.

00:37:00: um And yeah, and that's how it goes right.

00:37:03: So in theory, it's not bad.

00:37:05: The only problem is that often results In people consuming less fiber.

00:37:11: That's why some protein powder manufacturers are already starting to build fiber matrices into the protein powders, just so that you get a certain amount let say five to ten grams of additional fiber per serving.

00:37:27: Just to improve this tolerability, right?

00:37:29: Yeah.

00:37:30: Mm-hmm

00:37:30: That's also mostly on the on the protein bars.

00:37:33: if you look now at very At very new protein bars or maybe new brands It doesn't just say twenty grams per bar anymore But also like a second bubble with so and so many grams of fiber are Also included.

00:37:46: that is going be next big thing.

00:37:48: I can already see

00:37:49: it.

00:37:51: Everyone listening.

00:37:52: watch out.

00:37:52: in the next three years, a second field will be added everywhere saying fiber is included.

00:37:58: All

00:37:58: these drinks with fiber are already coming onto the market right?

00:38:01: So it's already becoming a big topic.

00:38:03: I think three different brands launched within a month.

00:38:06: Yeah and uh... The original idea i think came from an American company that was bought by Pepsi And they're also making these probiotic drinks now

00:38:17: Exactly Okay, the American product.

00:38:19: I know that one.

00:38:19: i think it was called fizzy or something.

00:38:21: no fizzy Was The New One From My Protein Never Mind?

00:38:22: Uh...the american one.

00:38:24: Something With Pop I Think.

00:38:26: Yeah Super Pop Or Something.

00:38:27: No.

00:38:27: That's Here In Germany Tamei In Germany

00:38:29: Exactly yeah exactly Exactly.

00:38:31: Anyway I don't Know Exactly What It'S Called.

00:38:32: in Any Case Pepsi Bought This Company I Think For Almost A Billion Or Something So They Did Spend a Pretty Penny On It.

00:38:39: Its Probably Pocket Money for Pepsi But but its Still Still impressive and just shows that there's a very, very big demand for it.

00:38:46: Right?

00:38:46: So these drinks they do sell.

00:38:48: well exactly

00:38:49: Wow.

00:38:49: but the exciting thing is the American product.

00:38:51: The role model product has I think like three grams of fiber per half liter which Is nothing right

00:38:56: yeah.

00:38:56: And the cans They are zero point three three right

00:38:59: Yeah something Like That Exactly.

00:39:01: so These Drinks They Do Sell.

00:39:03: Well.

00:39:04: But The Exciting Thing Is The American Product The Role Model Product Has i Think Like Three Grams Of Fiber Per Half Liter Which Is Nothing Yeah.

00:39:11: And the cans, they are zero point three-three right?

00:39:14: Yeah something like that exactly or exactly per zero point thirty then let's say so.

00:39:18: anyway it's definitely three grams per can.

00:39:20: and now the drinks coming out here in Germany Are all much more highly dosed Like somewhere between seven and ten grams I think yeah

00:39:26: although even with The American countdown.

00:39:28: but the fiber wasn't originally the USP But rather probiotic Right.

00:39:32: So That other components are also included.

00:39:36: So there will definitely be some movement and they're already available in many supermarkets, right?

00:39:43: You can definitely check that out.

00:39:45: Now if we stay with high protein intake... That's also a myth I would say.

00:39:50: just like hair loss and kidney damage was with creatine There is the topic of Kidney Damage With Protein.

00:39:56: And yeah The consensus used to very strong.

00:39:58: too much protein Is not good at all.

00:40:01: It ruins the kidneys because They practically get overwhelmed In their function.

00:40:07: The filtration rate decreases and in twenty, thirty years you'll be presented with the bill.

00:40:12: And then you will have some kind of mild renal insufficiency.

00:40:16: But Markus

00:40:18: Rühle is still standing?

00:40:18: I don't know how high his GFRs are but he has a very high protein intake.

00:40:28: so maybe that's an anecdotal example.

00:40:31: The the data doesn't really support that right.

00:40:36: there are simply no studies.

00:40:38: That somehow say a high protein intake is to blame for poor kidney function, you know in old age.

00:40:43: I mean controlled study where they looked at that were controlled always means that you want to exclude as many factors As possible to really trace it back to just one single factor and They never really saw anything there Right?

00:40:54: And that's why um i think It's fair to say that the current evidence Doesn't support the idea that protein causes kidney damage and that's been well researched.

00:41:06: yeah I think it's fair to say that the current evidence doesn't support The idea that protein causes kidneys

00:41:25: Exactly, but what i found super interesting about the kidney topic Which i didn't really have on my radar.

00:41:33: Even with poor kidney function, it's not necessarily that really something we learned in med school.

00:41:41: Yeah if kidney function is poor absolutely no high dose meaning protein rich meals

00:41:47: because where does that come from?

00:41:48: If you have renal insufficiency You have protein urea.

00:41:51: right.

00:41:52: That means you find protein And normally, that's filtered out again by the kidney because you want to keep as much of that in the body as possible.

00:41:58: So these proteins... You don't wanna get rid of them!

00:42:00: You wanna keep them in their bodies, recycle and rebuild them or break down.

00:42:03: But if it ends up in the urine then this filter net has become too permeable for the glomeruli.

00:42:10: The protein gets out?

00:42:12: Exactly.

00:42:12: And also an assumption was that higher protein intake would lead even worse.

00:42:18: That hasn't really been confirmed yet either.

00:42:20: It is just a theoretical consideration where people are cautious.

00:42:25: But in practice, there're also many who give patients high doses so still a lot of protein because they need it anyway and nothing happens at all right?

00:42:35: It's actually not that bad.

00:42:36: So even that is probably just the theoretical assumption.

00:42:39: but we don't want to lean too far out-of-the window here.

00:42:42: I found this very interesting cause'we really had that drilled into us And was very strong Right?

00:42:51: Another topic is diabetes and cancer.

00:42:55: There were also a few epidemiological studies that somehow said, well if you have very high protein intake in middle age let's say middle-age somewhere between thirty forty fifty something around there then uh...you see more diabetes and more cancer down the road.

00:43:13: um..there too yeah those are always epidemiological data That is they just looked at data from very, very many hundreds of thousands people and said look high protein intake later somehow more cancer.

00:43:32: but similar to the plant based versus animal protein debate there are confounders.

00:43:38: Namely that protein intake is very often covered by processed products and process products have a lot.

00:43:45: ingredients in excess can Promote cancer.

00:43:50: right if we think of sausage products and so on.

00:43:53: So processed a sausage or bacon salami, and so one and so forth.

00:44:00: there are so many

00:44:00: context in which you might consume meat.

00:44:02: I mean it's inside a burger You bought at McDonalds is not going to be that healthy either.

00:44:07: even If they were theoretically organic meet in their.

00:44:11: you still have a lot of junk around It And That Still Does Damage Right?

00:44:17: The Meat Can't Compensate for that Right.

00:44:19: And I believe that's also a big problem alongside all these sausage products

00:44:45: and, So we shouldn't forget it's not just an animal based problem.

00:44:52: That's why, yeah... Opinions are divided and the same with diabetes right?

00:45:00: Diabetes in cancer?

00:45:01: you can't really say conclusively but evidence also points more to this direction.

00:45:09: if source is correct then outcome too.

00:45:13: In that regard thats a takeaway message.

00:45:19: At the beginning we said that when you go to the supermarket, do find protein everywhere?

00:45:24: Is it smart actually buy these.

00:45:27: Barilla high protein noodles or having a protein shake every day eating protein bars?

00:45:37: yeah so depends.

00:45:39: I would say once again if u eat very balanced diet and then suddenly start instead of this balance diet replacing one meal every day with a protein shake, then I would say no that's not good idea.

00:45:56: Not smart!

00:45:57: That is really the point.

00:45:59: it might help you reach an extra goal but than its on top right?

00:46:04: Or if your diet is too high in calories and you want to replace a meal for this reason... Then of course get benefit.

00:46:12: But when you don't actually have balanced diets or calories It makes sense to replace meals Right.

00:46:20: So it's true that proteins can help with weight loss, I think we don't need to beat around the bush there.

00:46:24: I think We also briefly mentioned that in The Sweden episode because... Because That is a big topic There.

00:46:29: so this definitely something too bad.

00:46:32: and It's Also True that we Need A certain amount of Protein Per Day And More Is Often Better Especially If You're Active Doing Sports Somehow And Also For Muscle Maintenance In Old Age.

00:46:43: But It Shouldn'T Be That you I don't know.

00:46:47: Don't eat your steak and broccoli in the evening anymore because you've had a protein shake now or also, in the morning... You don't eat eggs or your skier even some vegan alternative any more just to drink a protein Shake instead.

00:47:03: that makes In cases where you don't necessarily urgently need to get into a calorie deficit Or no from my point of view it doesn't make sense right?

00:47:13: And this leads to introducing highly processed product and actually balance diet.

00:47:19: And that's not the point.

00:47:21: for example, I also have a very easy feeling when you meet people in there mostly women who want to lose weight right?

00:47:29: Who has a weight problem and wants to lose some of your weight or have a better figure?

00:47:34: There are few big companies out here That then convey their message.

00:47:41: You just need to drink some shakes or supplements all day long, right?

00:47:47: And then a typical day looks like starting in the morning with a shake.

00:47:53: Then also drinking a shake in the evening at most having a bit of solid food at lunchtime.

00:47:59: but even that is done as special pancake mix.

00:48:02: you pour into your pan which has high protein.

00:48:05: At the end of the day.

00:48:07: how do you get an idea to believe something healthy?

00:48:11: Well I mean probably won't have a protein deficiency.

00:48:14: No, so yeah.

00:48:15: You probably don't have a protein deficiency and you also lose weight right?

00:48:18: And you also loose weight.

00:48:19: That's the problem.

00:48:20: But how anyone can get the idea that something like that is healthy Is completely beyond me.

00:48:23: no So that's definitely not good.

00:48:25: but

00:48:25: people think it's healthy.

00:48:27: Right People thing.

00:48:27: It's healthy because then these vitamins are Also added in theoretically on The package.

00:48:33: I'm already saying package insert but under On the package.

00:48:38: if you look at that you would think yes everything is actually there But it's not present in the form where the body can also absorb.

00:48:46: It well, right?

00:48:47: So why are our plant based or animal-based foods so good?

00:48:52: because the nutrients are there in their natural environment Right.

00:48:56: Why is iron from animal products absorbed so well and so poorly in plant products?

00:49:01: simply Because The body We have a great need for heme Iron right and this him iron it already occurs an animal product And then you can absorb it.

00:49:12: and it's always fascinating when you talk to people, this has happened a few times lately that they eat so healthily but just drink a shake three time per day or some highly processed.

00:49:27: That is also highly processed right?

00:49:29: You have to look at the way too.

00:49:32: if anyone does that please keep in mind.

00:49:35: I mean everyone can do.

00:49:37: No,

00:49:39: exactly.

00:49:39: It's definitely not healthy in the long run.

00:49:41: it can of course be useful for a weight loss phase if necessary.

00:49:44: that perhaps has a qualification but I think The big problem is what?

00:49:48: Is now Happening?

00:49:50: is that protein these protein shakes are seen too much as a meal But they actually still a supplement right and an in-the-word supplement or dietary Supplement.

00:50:01: it actually already says What it Actually is its A supplement And Not The Basis Right And I think that's totally clear with pills.

00:50:09: That also, if you buy vitamin D then it is clear to everyone.

00:50:14: but protein is currently blurring so enormously and partly a bit too far-fetched.

00:50:23: Yes!

00:50:24: It's this constant debate of replacement versus supplement.

00:50:27: So there shouldn't be a replacement.

00:50:29: It can maybe be a replacement now and then if you can't manage it time wise.

00:50:33: that's also perfectly fine right.

00:50:35: so that you grab convenience products sometimes or just think okay before i eat nothing at all.

00:50:40: I'll just drink a shake here for some kind of liquid meal whatever, I also think doing that for a year is not good.

00:51:05: And even if you do it to lose weight, like you say there's actually nothing wrong with that.

00:51:09: but then... You should manage make the pivot back into normal balanced diet and maintain lower-weight because you can get very protein.

00:51:22: You can also do that with a normal diet.

00:51:28: And of course, they taste incredibly good right?

00:51:31: That's the big advantage of these products.

00:51:36: I mean no matter what is in them They usually tastes good anyway Right!

00:51:39: Also think those pancakes you shake out there are good too but yeah.

00:51:46: But i have to say we've shared our opinion.

00:51:49: Yes yes but it was very important topic for me because its so widespread now and this companies their huge that distribute it, they also work through multi-level market.

00:51:59: Should be

00:52:00: fair!

00:52:01: They don't actually say you should replace everything with it right?

00:52:12: The only question is what happens in practice and um... That might a bit different from what's promoted.

00:52:20: Well.. In practice the ones I have in mind all worked though a multi level marketing system And in the end, you don't have direct marketing where I buy from the company's online shop.

00:52:31: But it goes through many different stages and In The End You Also Have The Motivation Of Wanting To Sell Something Wanting to Make Money From It.

00:52:40: That Why There Is The Recommendation Just Structure Your Whole Day Around It Right?

00:52:46: And that is How i've Seen It Very Many Cases.

00:52:51: Yeah!

00:52:51: That Should Definitely Be Mentioned.

00:52:52: That That'S Not Good Exactly, but yeah.

00:52:55: I mean protein in the end.

00:52:56: uh i think we've talked a lot about it now and um The conclusion is yes protein is super important.

00:53:03: Uh that the general recommendations are too low.

00:53:06: They should be a bit higher.

00:53:07: the zero point eight is probably to little.

00:53:10: Not just probably But definitely too little.

00:53:12: if you also move If you have a bit of an active lifestyle then It should be somewhere In the range Of one point three one point four One point five one point six.

00:53:21: The most exciting thing I think is just when you.

00:53:24: Think about it roughly, When you ask yourself at the end of day anyone listening or watching right now can do this?

00:53:31: Just asked yourself how much protein did i consume today?

00:53:37: and that doesn't have to get out-of hand like downloading a tracking app Or something...I'm actually not a big fan Of That!

00:53:44: Just think About It Roughly.

00:53:46: Look At Back Of The Package.

00:53:47: How Much Protein Was Actually In There To Get A Bit feel for it so that you just reach your daily goal, I think.

00:53:55: And then you've already achieved a lot.

00:53:59: and with animal versus plant if you eat vegetarian diet... Then i think that's fine too!

00:54:05: You have to make sure the bioavailability is lower as we consume relatively more protein.

00:54:17: Do you have nice closing message?

00:54:20: No actually set everything.

00:54:22: I think we got the message out that protein is not bad, but also not always good.

00:54:29: And um... That's i think most important thing.

00:54:32: Wonderful!

00:54:33: Then thanks for listening.

00:54:34: Thanks For Watching.

00:54:36: If there are any questions just get in touch at podcast at beyondlifespan.de or comment on Apple Podcasts On Spotify and YouTube.

00:54:43: We listen to everything.

00:54:45: like to reply.

00:54:47: Based on that..we'd also like do the occasional episode Like today.

00:54:51: This one came about because we got some questions and thought it would make sense to discuss the topic a bit more holistically.

00:54:58: Thanks for listening, thanks Max!

00:55:00: See you next time.

00:55:02: I'm looking forward.