Whey, Vegan Protein and Collagen: What Matters for Muscle

00:00:00: Soy protein is actually supposed to be the hottest ship, but...

00:00:04: And in the end it didn't matter if you took casein at night or whey.

00:00:08: Still got that exact same benefit right?

00:00:10: You just shouldn't take it for your muscles.

00:00:12: That's not a point too.

00:00:14: With vegan protein powders there are high chances of contaminates on the other metals.

00:00:23: Imagine stirring a scoop of collagen into your coffee every morning, spending forty bucks per month on it thinking you're doing something great for muscles and then turns out that powder is pretty much the worst thing.

00:00:37: That's exactly what studies show in older men and women.

00:00:41: Collagen barely stimulated muscle growth compared to whey protein.

00:00:45: And on top comes second surprise A well balanced vegan protein from rice & pea can do almost as much for your muscles, has high-quality whey protein.

00:00:55: That's why today we're comparing different protein sources— whey, casein, egg, beef, collagen soy, pee BCAAs and EAAs.

00:01:05: Today were looking at what makes a protein high quality.

00:01:08: where is it just marketing?

00:01:10: And which type fits who!

00:01:12: At the end of this video we've got our bio hack on how to get more out.

00:01:20: In your protein research, let's say just as a regular person first come across the chemical score.

00:01:26: I didn't come across.

00:01:27: it has a regular personal at all.

00:01:29: um i was actually looking into developing a protein powder specifically a vegan protein powder and Thing is people know?

00:01:40: I mean, I think most people know by now that vegan protein tends to be less bio available than Way protein or dairy protein animal based proteins in general And science or rather the industry came up with a way to make that a bit.

00:01:56: Yeah, let's say less abstract and that is the chemical score.

00:02:02: at first you think okay why the hell chemical score like?

00:02:05: what does this have to do with chemistry?

00:02:07: quite a lot actually because in the end proteins are just made of amino acids.

00:02:12: it's important we get reasonably good ratio of essential amino acid protein intake And if for instance one essential amino acid is present in very, very low amounts relatively speaking then that's basically a limiting amino acid.

00:02:30: Then the rest of the amino acids and protein can't be metabolized as well or used effectively by the body.

00:02:40: That exact limiting amino-acid is often why many vegan protein powders tend to have lower bioavailability.

00:02:50: So that's definitely a factor, right?

00:02:53: A really important one and so for example rice protein might have less of one amino acid than it ideally should And that limits the rest Right!

00:03:04: We know for instance that whey protein has a really good chemical score.

00:03:08: It is around one forty meaning you look at what an ideal essential amino acid profile in practice.

00:03:19: How does the lowest amino acid compare proportionately?

00:03:25: put another way?

00:03:27: How high is the lowest

00:03:31: concentrated amino acid.

00:03:33: Let me jump in real quick, there's a really great analogy that helps.

00:03:37: picture it.

00:03:38: if you think of a wooden barrel and has those wooden staves around the sides right Say, eight of those staves can be three feet tall.

00:03:55: But if just one is only two feet tall then the water basically spills out at two feet... Just like that!

00:04:03: It doesn't help you that others are there in higher amounts when one falls short and That's how it works with a chemical score right?

00:04:12: If one of these nine amino acids is too low Then the rest cannot use by body for muscle protein synthesis because the body is missing that one amino acid yet needs all of them to build muscle exactly like right.

00:04:27: And not.

00:04:27: that's basically what this chemical score is and like you said hundred would be the reference profile.

00:04:33: so we have these nine essential amino acids.

00:04:36: if each amino acid present in me in the right ratio get a hundred it can also be higher off course because in away protein all nine are present in good amounts to even a bit more than the reference profile.

00:04:48: That's why the value ends up higher, right?

00:04:51: If one amino acid is slightly lower you can end up with a value below a hundred like with pea protein or rice protein which falls somewhere between seventy and ninety for example.

00:05:04: so... Right!

00:05:05: And the key thing it just this.. It can come down to just one amino asset meaning all of others could be at two-hundred but if one isn't upto par compared to their reference profile You still only get a hundred

00:05:18: Exactly, then that's the limiting factor.

00:05:20: and we'll circle back to that later when we get into all different types of protein listed in the intro.

00:05:27: That includes I will say plant-based proteins And briefly come back with this chemical score.

00:05:33: Then thats why we tackled heavy stuff right off the bat even if it was a bit abstract.

00:05:40: Maybe one more thing on that.

00:05:42: The chemical score is listed On some products But it only tells you what's in the protein, not how much of it actually gets absorbed.

00:05:52: That is really important as to what reaches that body right?

00:05:56: It strictly about breakdown.

00:05:59: those essential amino acids and any other amino acid included there aren't factored into this rating at all.

00:06:06: If want dive a little deeper on that.

00:06:08: There are few values like DIAAS.

00:06:12: We did an episode on protein a while back, quite a bit ago now.

00:06:15: And we talked about the bioavailability of different protein types and you can also Google the DIAAS score.

00:06:23: You can see for yourself how high the bio availability is compared to say a whey protein or an egg which has very-very high protein bio available.

00:06:33: Now when it comes to quality protein several factors actually come into play not just this chemical score right?

00:06:40: What else matters here?

00:06:42: Yeah, in the end of course.

00:06:43: The score you just mentioned is basically above all essentially a kind of digestibility score like how much actually makes it into the body?

00:06:52: In the end right that's definitely different from the chemical score.

00:06:56: Then of course You can look at the big picture.

00:06:58: Okay What percentage Of this protein has made up of essential amino acids?

00:07:02: in a way That's also A quality metric because you really want that to be relatively high since those are the amino acids the body Can't produce on its own Meaning you have to get them through your diet.

00:07:15: They're essential and therefore simply more important than other amino acids, so that's interesting.

00:07:22: another thing You could look at is actually one specific amino acid And that's leucine.

00:07:28: Why?

00:07:28: because leucin?

00:07:29: Is widely known as the ultimate mTOR activator or rather The trigger That drives muscle building As effectively as possible Or simply preserves muscle mass as well as possible.

00:07:42: You really want to make sure you get enough leucine because it's pretty much the most important factor in triggering muscle synthesis, so that is definitely super interesting.

00:07:55: Otherwise I'd actually say there isn't much else to watch out for except of course when it comes to vegan proteins making sure the amino acid profile is reasonably balanced which conveniently enough where this chemical score comes in handy and it's usually printed on most proteins anyway.

00:08:14: So exactly like you said, leucine is also an essential amino acid right?

00:08:18: It would be captured by this chemical score too that we described earlier And you need all the essential amino acids.

00:08:25: they're basically building blocks but without the... Without leucin the oven won't start up.

00:08:30: I mean an oven has a wrong analogy here since nothing is burning somethings being built.

00:08:35: But yeah, it's essentially just the starting gun for muscle protein synthesis to even kick off.

00:08:42: And that's why there

00:08:43: are

00:08:44: plenty of products on the market specifically fortified with leucine right?

00:08:49: They'll have an extra one two or three grams of leucin tossed in Just too guarantee that muscle protein Synthesis gets triggered so you can metabolize it properly and actually incorporate those building blocks the essential amino acids, I found that really interesting.

00:09:07: Other than that lysine and methionine also count as essential amino acid.

00:09:12: there's sometimes an issue with plant proteins if you think back to that wooden barrel analogy right?

00:09:18: Sometimes lysine or methionin is particularly short stave now.

00:09:23: thats why you have blend them smartly which is why you hardly ever get pure pea protein on its own but rather a nice blend of another plant protein mixed in And that's why it's also just added in sometimes, right?

00:09:39: So you really need to make sure the product your taking hits that right leucine amount and has a solid chemical score.

00:09:47: That makes is great way gauge whether as much of the products possible can actually go toward muscle protein synthesis or if there are still some little gaps somewhere might needs extra help.

00:10:01: We're going talk later about Myth and honestly, I've heard this all the time that you should never have more than like twenty five or thirty grams of protein in a single meal Because anything beyond that is basically just expensive poop right by now.

00:10:19: I'd say that's been largely debunked because we know that with Huge protein packed meals let's say a hundred grams of proteins in one sitting which personally wouldn't do much for me but i'm sure some people pull it off, especially those who eat a ton in general train hard and have high demands.

00:10:41: A very large portion still gets incorporated into the muscles over much longer window of time.

00:10:48: That's way more than just that thirty percent or those thirty grams In this case, thirty percent don't end up on toilet.

00:10:56: We should definitely move past.

00:11:02: We've looked at lots and lots of different protein types.

00:11:04: And the classic one is whey protein, right?

00:11:09: From a lot of brands that only make plant-based or vegan protein.

00:11:14: they always say oh, whey proteins... That's just waste!

00:11:17: All their doings are taking wastes and repurposing it.

00:11:22: What would you say to those people?

00:11:23: Well yeah.. At least it was true for a long time.

00:11:29: These days, that's obviously no longer the case because they've found a way to reuse this quote unquote waste.

00:11:35: So by now it's yeah huge thing I'd say A lot of topics.

00:11:39: companies have sprung up around It and are also super successful with it.

00:11:44: Why?

00:11:44: Because Of course its very easy Way To boost your protein intake quickly Boosted With No Hassle!

00:11:49: Because Its Very Very Bioavailable And Usually Pretty Well Tolerated In Most Cases.

00:11:54: And on top of that, actually even if you have some kind of lactose intolerance or something.

00:11:58: it's mostly still totally fine because there is just super little in the right.

00:12:02: So for most people its very appealing and also very well tolerated.

00:12:08: Then you can differentiate between different grades of quality meaning usually the whey protein you buy has between seventy percent to eighty percent protein.

00:12:18: You could kick up a notch then gets pricier than ninety percent protein.

00:12:23: That's kind of isolated a bit more, that what is called an isolate.

00:12:27: So it also pretty interesting.

00:12:28: you can find out at every protein company that sells protein usually there the regular concentrate with seventy-eighty percent and then an isolate which is around.

00:12:38: usually the isolate per kilo Is definitely chunked more expensive but The advantage to get with isolate even less lactose in it or fat And there's just more protein per serving and therefore of course it's proportionally lower in calories, right?

00:12:56: That is definitely another reason for a lot of pros to go for that.

00:13:03: In general we already mentioned whey protein is very bioavailable looking at the chemical score around one hundred forty so really strong usually what other proteins are measured against simply because its pretty much already the gold standard, and you don't really have to do anything to optimize it even further.

00:13:21: It's already great.

00:13:44: you can save ten euros on your next order.

00:13:47: You'll find the link and the code in the show notes.

00:13:52: to jump back to the beginning for a second, why do people think it's waste?

00:13:56: Well, you have classic milk protein right in cheese making...you add rennet to it, you add acid And uh eighty percent is casein.

00:14:05: twenty percent Is whey protein.

00:14:07: so classic whey!

00:14:10: With that acid The casein curdles out In that liquid which people call waste which nowadays is worth more than the cheese you get from the casein.

00:14:20: because of this whole protein trend by now it's like, uh... be i mean that way you can sell at for so much more then the cheese.

00:14:28: That its almost not waste anymore.

00:14:30: it's a very profitable side business i'd say.

00:14:33: and exactly have this liquid which actually still has a tonne of lactose in it.

00:14:38: but then that gets filtered and purified again.

00:14:43: Then you get the three types that you already described.

00:14:45: Concentrate is the one with seventy to eighty percent protein, still has some lactose in it.

00:14:51: That's definitely the most affordable option than the isolate?

00:14:55: That has almost no lactose left in it.

00:14:57: so its actually relatively well tolerated by Most people even those who have a lactose intolerance or lactose sensitivity.

00:15:05: and then there's hydrolysate.

00:15:07: thats more expensive than isolate.

00:15:09: Its kind of predigested So it floods the body faster.

00:15:14: That means when you drink hydrolysate, a whey hydrolisade... It floods the bodies faster and amino acids are released quicker And available in the body for muscle building Exactly those pretty much three most common types.

00:15:30: There's also something like native way that I stumbled across during my research.

00:15:35: It has slightly higher leucine content or rather the leucin hits bloodstream a bit faster.

00:15:42: Also pretty fascinating if you compare this native way to a totally normal standard way, which is way way cheaper.

00:15:49: then muscle Protein synthesis.

00:15:52: So muscle growth Is the same for both meaning just because you can measure A higher leucine peak in the blood doesn't mean that at The end of the day You clinically get a better outcome with Better muscle protein synthesis or with better muscle growth.

00:16:08: That I thought was pretty fascinating.

00:16:11: And in the studies, there was another fun fact or maybe it's not a fun fact at all.

00:16:17: That is we've been talking for a long time about how with these GLP-I agonists so Osempic, Wagovi, Tizepotide and whatever else they're called you don't just lose fat You also lose muscle mass.

00:16:31: So you practically loose lean mass.

00:16:34: that relatively often an issue because Muscle mass is super important, especially as you get older.

00:16:40: The older you get the more important it gets and that comes at the expense of your metabolism Of course right.

00:16:47: muscle isn't endocrine organ As they always say.

00:16:49: its metabolically active burns energy.

00:16:52: make sure we're less insulin resistant And so on and so forth and That's why they once compared when people who are losing weight.

00:17:00: So during a diet this has nothing to do with GLP one agonist?

00:17:07: They had one group that was given whey protein and the other group is giving soy protein, which also known for having very good bioavailability.

00:17:16: I mean it's almost neck-and-neck with whey proteins not really much worse at all.

00:17:20: And muscle mass or the muscle protein synthesis.

00:17:24: so where muscles actually actively created in the waygroup only dropped by nine percent during calorie deficit and with soy by thirty.

00:17:35: I thought that was a very substantial difference.

00:17:38: So at least in the study, it seemed to be the case.

00:17:41: for people who are losing a lot of weight or inner calorie deficit, whey protein is better suited to preserving muscle mass than say soy protein?

00:17:51: Well actually still fits into pretty well with the prevailing theory even more bioavailable and can be incorporated better.

00:17:59: so not really all that surprising but nice confirmation nonetheless.

00:18:03: Yeah, I mean the difference in that score.

00:18:06: It's about Ten percent i'd say right with way people always say?

00:18:11: I don't know now if it's the DIA AS score or The other one.

00:18:15: it has a value of one and soy as like zero point nine Zero point nine five.

00:18:21: And yet this slightly lower bioavailability Has a substantial effect on things like muscle mass and muscle protein synthesis.

00:18:30: That I thought was pretty pretty intriguing.

00:18:33: And generally speaking, you have to say that whey is also tolerated pretty well.

00:18:37: The bigger issue is often not the way.

00:18:40: it's all the sweeteners flavorings thickener and additives that are otherwise packed into the product right?

00:18:47: Those are often what keep people from tolerating it.

00:18:50: Well but generally It's definitely the cheapest and best researched alternative when it comes to preserving muscle mass.

00:18:58: You can certainly say that much But now there are a few other Animal based alternatives.

00:19:04: Yeah, yeah.

00:19:05: so what else is out there?

00:19:08: first off?

00:19:08: There's classic milk protein That's also frequently used in many functional products functional functional foods So to speak.

00:19:16: you can definitely find a few and supermarkets these days price wise it's A little cheaper than then way But fundamentally its barely second-to-way.

00:19:27: It's actually very very bio available as well and works great.

00:19:31: It does have the minor downside of just containing more lactose as the name implies milk protein.

00:19:37: And so it's not necessarily totally suitable for a lot people compared to whey, but otherwise definitely an intriguing alternative and really in a lot functional foods simply because the flavor is that little bit fuller right?

00:19:55: Other than that, there's casein.

00:19:57: I think that was my first touch point back when you have your first gym bro phase and then the bro science right?

00:20:04: And then guys go yeah so during a day take whey protein but before bed don't drink away protein shake.

00:20:14: no it is way better if you drink a casein protein shake.

00:20:18: principally casein proteins are also very bio available.

00:20:23: protein taste wise i find it a bit less pleasant but that's probably very subjective to anyone.

00:20:29: i think anyone can test out for themselves.

00:20:32: It definitely gets released into the bloodstream more slowly and thats why they say it could be interesting at night because its release slowly overnight, overnight the body does.

00:20:41: the body recovers potentially builds muscle mass too.

00:20:44: And can then naturally access.

00:20:46: those amino acids were just absorbed right away.

00:20:49: so in that sense pretty intriguing idea.

00:20:51: I then in turn critically push back and say, okay.

00:20:54: If i drink that an hour before going to bed?

00:20:56: I think im definitely gonna feel it.

00:20:57: I don't really drink protein shakes anymore because my sleep is just less restful.

00:21:06: That's where its falls down a bit.

00:21:08: The question was whether the lost recovery wasn't way more important than the amount of protein you took right before going into bed.

00:21:16: But otherwise there are some interesting studies on this though some of them contradict each other.

00:21:21: So there are studies saying, okay it really is the case that its more bioavailable overnight or rather it helps boost muscle protein synthesis got it right?

00:21:32: Overnight.

00:21:33: but nowadays they're also studies where thats already been refuted.

00:21:36: That's why I'm still kind-of yeah...I mean i am a bit agnostic on it..i just find it complicated to have two different shakes at home ..i think that's when it starts.

00:21:46: It doesn't really depend on the form so much.

00:21:50: I mean, there have been a few comparative studies between casein and whey And in the end it didn't matter whether you took casein In The Evening or whey.

00:21:59: You still got the exact same benefit right?

00:22:01: Because your sleeping afterward anyway.

00:22:03: Now like i said ,you could debate Whether its good idea to take such big serving of protein in evening.

00:22:08: We'll circle back that later

00:22:10: Exactly

00:22:11: Yeah otherwise it does not matter.

00:22:12: And im convinced At least based what u can read & look into That way protein in the evening is just as effective as casein and you don't need a second product.

00:22:23: You can just take the same product if you want to consume a protein shake, you don' t even have to make up protein shake either.

00:22:30: You uh...can also cover that pretty well with low fat quark or skyer for example.

00:22:34: right those all so contain whole lot of casing because it's just milk protein rate some milk protein.

00:22:40: its twenty percent way eighty percent casein.

00:22:42: thats why contains it In in an amount that can be relatively substantial and It doesn't have to be a supplement.

00:22:51: It can just be regular food.

00:22:53: But yeah at the end of the day, it's not even that important that its casein.

00:22:57: Then there's also beef protein.

00:22:59: Until a couple of years ago I hadn't really seen that at all.

00:23:03: So i felt like that was a relatively

00:23:06: new Exactly exactly

00:23:08: kind of protein going through a hype phase when When everyone's super into protein, it's often the case that every now and then a new form is supposed to be better than the other four.

00:23:17: I think that's just the nature of The Beast.

00:23:20: What special about beef protein?

00:23:23: You can't really give a chemical score because it totally depends on what connective tissue from which cow you took...

00:23:31: Which cut-of meat in connective tissues?

00:23:33: yeah It's pretty tough To say

00:23:34: exactly!

00:23:35: You Can't Really Standardize That Which Is Why There'S No Chemical Score Given.

00:23:40: It's definitely lactose-free, dairy free.

00:23:43: So for people who follow the caveman diet meaning Paleo anyone who listened to last episode about different diets we talked about paleo there too.

00:23:55: it is very popular their...it doesn't seem make much difference whether its beef protein or whey protein.

00:24:03: once again beef protein significantly more expensive than whey proteins.

00:24:06: that has been said.

00:24:08: Anyone who listened to the last episode about different diets, we talked about paleo there too.

00:24:13: It's very popular There.

00:24:14: it doesn't seem to make much difference whether its beef protein or whey protein.

00:24:19: Once again beef protein is significantly more expensive than whey Protein.

00:24:22: that has to be said.

00:24:24: what was also interesting and actually totally logical Consumed beef protein makes sense right because ferritin is essentially stored iron And depending on which part of the cow was used There's more or less of it present.

00:24:39: So that's a nice side benefit.

00:24:41: That obviously doesn't happen with way, right?

00:24:43: there is basically no ferritin in that.

00:24:46: so for people who already have A bit of an iron issue It might be interesting to switch But not like you'd say its clear recommendation.

00:24:57: In the end Its just an alternative To ways thats expensive but ultimately.

00:25:03: And then theres.

00:25:07: Yeah, there are various ways you can consume that now.

00:25:09: I mean You could obviously just eat eggs like how people have always done it?

00:25:13: Just eggs in the morning or whatever.

00:25:16: But nowadays you can also just buy egg whites Like liquid egg white's.

00:25:20: i've always found out a bit perverse to be honest.

00:25:23: you just get this little plastic bottle.

00:25:25: you Can order online and think even bite into some supermarkets Now and they're just egg whites in It.

00:25:30: And um...I guess They treat it somehow.

00:25:32: so doesn't spoil because I haven't researched this, but it pretty much has to be like that because you can just bottle egg whites and then they spoil.

00:25:40: So there must be something mixed in to kill off all the bacteria or whatever?

00:25:43: Yeah Just don't leave it sitting out right.

00:25:45: yeah exactly You can't pasteurize It either Right That would it Would just solidify.

00:25:49: But um.

00:25:51: And Then you Can Either Yeah Drink It Liquid Which Is Pretty Gross Slimy Stuff But You Can Do It.

00:25:56: Okay

00:25:57: Yeah Just Don't Leave It Sitting Out

00:25:59: Right.

00:26:00: Exactly You Can'T Pasteurize.

00:26:01: That would just sort of solidify, right?

00:26:07: And then you can either yeah drink it liquid which is pretty gross that slimy stuff But you can do it.

00:26:12: Okay Or you can throw in the pan and then you just have a totally white fried egg like.

00:26:17: I've never gotten that but It's a thing.

00:26:19: there's also egg white powder Right Like actual powdered egg whites.

00:26:23: really funny, right.

00:26:24: literally Just the whites of the egg but packaged up as a powder.

00:26:27: Yeah, that exists too.

00:26:28: You can do all of that.

00:26:31: Certainly very bio available in general, right?

00:26:34: People always say that anyway.

00:26:35: That eggs are actually a really good source of protein.

00:26:38: It has a relatively good chemical score but it varies wildly because if you eat normal egg with the yolk You have completely different Composition than when its without the yoke which means better with Yoke then Without.

00:26:51: With The Yoke you tend to Have A Higher Chemical Score Than Without and Without Its Just Kind Of Yeah, It's just Not The Whole Egg Right

00:26:56: yeah Plus It's Totally Nasty And the yolk also has a lot of important vitamins.

00:27:01: You can't forget that, right?

00:27:02: There's a lot other good stuff in there.

00:27:05: That's why eggs are always a good idea.

00:27:07: The cholesterol myth has been debunked by now.

00:27:09: I'd say so it could be an alternative.

00:27:12: Then we have one more thing which is classic collagen Which was talked about at the intro.

00:27:18: Collagen is protein but its incomplete protein because only consists three amino acids glycine proline and hydroxyproline.

00:27:26: And so it definitely has a chemical score of zero, right?

00:27:30: Because it doesn't have all nine essential amino acids.

00:27:33: Just three different amino acids.

00:27:36: It has practically no leucine basically No tryptophan So nothing that really kick starts muscle protein synthesis.

00:27:42: If someone takes collagen to build muscle because they're going To the gym or doing strength training Or whatever.

00:27:50: That's definitely not A good idea.

00:27:53: What a lot of people use it for is when it comes to tendons, ligaments joints and even then only as a supplement.

00:28:01: So if I'm having away protein shake anyway There's nothing wrong with throwing in a few grams of collagen.

00:28:07: For example because you say i run A LOT too or maybe You already have an issue aches symptoms With your tendons ligaments or joints Or whatever?

00:28:18: Because you do a lot Of repetitive training In one sport it can definitely be a good and sensible idea.

00:28:25: They say there's this, There is protocol I cant think of the name right now where you're supposed to take collagen about thirty-to sixty minutes before putting stress on joints.

00:28:36: so drink your ten fifteen or twenty grams of collagen half an hour or one hour before going for run cycling doing sport.

00:28:45: when joints get stressed then It supposedly gets absorbed particularly well into the ligaments, right?

00:28:52: Because they're then... I mean it floods the system relatively fast.

00:28:56: The ligaments and tendons are being loaded And then the collagen can deposit better there or rather at the tendon origins.

00:29:04: Yeah Do its thing Right.

00:29:08: yeah one lance i still have to break though is obviously for skin.

00:29:12: Wrinkle depth and elasticity also tend to improve with higher collagen intake simply because The, let's say hydration and the skin gets better too.

00:29:21: That means glycine in particular is super interesting as an amino acid.

00:29:25: honestly just taking plain glycines probably almost as good as collagen powder right?

00:29:30: I think that's the main active component there that primarily affects the skin.

00:29:35: but yeah per se.

00:29:35: i mean you shouldn't take it for muscle building.

00:29:39: thats completely missing a point.

00:29:40: its tendons anything connective tissue And its skin

00:29:44: Exactly!

00:29:47: If you have a protein deficit, you shouldn't start plugging that with collagen.

00:29:51: Instead another whey protein or just whole foods is definitely a smarter investment than buying collagen powder on top unless it's specifically about yeah tendons joints ligaments skin for instance.

00:30:04: and maybe one more thing about college before we wrap up.

00:30:07: there are different sources out.

00:30:08: they're on the one hand you can get from bovine source basically shredded connective tissue mostly bones too right But it can also come from marine coral.

00:30:21: That's pretty interesting too, right?

00:30:23: Works pretty much just as well.

00:30:25: apparently at the end of day It's always about having those three amino acids in there glycine proline hydroxyproline and Having them insufficient amounts or an a reasonably solid ratio.

00:30:37: And then theoretically these days There are also products that really just let say mix those amino acids together more less synthetically And that's probably just as good.

00:30:47: So in the end, it really comes down to these three amino acids getting them at a higher dose and then you get the benefits of collagen... Just not for muscles!

00:30:57: Exactly so.

00:30:57: let's move on.

00:30:58: Then lets' move onto all the vegan protein alternatives.

00:31:01: There is such massive selection right?

00:31:03: You've got soy protein P-protein rice protein fava bean protein and on anon ...and you have looked into this bit yourself.

00:31:11: The vast majority of them are blends.

00:31:13: While there are isolated soy proteins, I haven't really seen an isolated pea protein or an isolated rice protein very often for example... Well, rice protein actually yeah i did see one recently.

00:31:24: Seen

00:31:24: rice before too

00:31:27: but both an isolated pee protein and an isolated Rice Protein.

00:31:31: they both have the issue with uh the wooden barrel staves being too short right sticking with that analogy a lower chemical score Simply because one is slightly lower in lysine.

00:31:43: The other is slightly low in methionine and that's why they usually only make sense In combination.

00:31:50: But tell us what you found out just generally in your research.

00:31:54: Yeah, so I think Tendentially when you look at it from product development angle You naturally look at aspects That aren't necessarily rational but partly irrational too.

00:32:06: And if you made a purely rational choice you'd probably go with soy protein.

00:32:09: If you strictly went off the data on what soy protein delivers, it's probably the most cost effective relatively speaking.

00:32:16: It has the best amino acid profile and it tastes the best meaning pretty much all relevant aspects are better except that its a potential allergen though to be fair that affects very few people.

00:32:30: then there're these wild claims.

00:32:32: potentially promotes estrogen is supposed to terrible for men which honestly doesn't hold up to scrutiny either.

00:32:39: Um, but yeah per se soy protein is actually the best thing out there.

00:32:44: But like I said it just has a bad reputation i'd say A bad rap.

00:32:50: Yeah It's unpopular and There are still a lot of myths floating around that haven't been sufficiently debunked.

00:32:58: let's Say in The public discourse right including That it lowers testosterone In men.

00:33:03: thats by now also Debunked.

00:33:07: There are plenty of new studies on that too.

00:33:10: The issue with women, the soy molecules and isoflavones in there bind to estrogen receptors... ...and cause crazy effects?

00:33:20: Those are receptor modulators not classic agonists who do exactly same thing as estrogen.

00:33:27: That needs to be said too!

00:33:28: So like you said actually a super good alternative but it has bad PR.

00:33:35: A pure soy protein will sell, let's say worse than some blend of all the new pea rice fava bean proteins out there.

00:33:47: Pea actually has a slightly lower chemical score then soy but it is most common powder or component in vegan protein powders because its generally very well tolerated.

00:34:02: The limiting factor is methionine.

00:34:04: The beauty is that the methionine can then come from rice protein.

00:34:07: So when you combine pea and rice, You get a pretty good profile again.

00:34:12: right together they have higher chemical score than components on their own.

00:34:16: Rice's only around sixty for instance Pea somewhere in eighty to ninety range And together They reach a combined higher value.

00:34:27: Now about P. It can work just as well, especially in a blend.

00:34:33: I already mentioned that it's on its own and has an inadequate essential amino acid composition That can be balanced out with rice.

00:34:44: Rice is weak.

00:34:44: spot is lysine which comes from the pea protein.

00:34:49: So yeah thats really only issue there.

00:34:52: In general, plant proteins are far more likely to be contaminated with heavy metals for example than animal-based options especially compared to whey protein.

00:35:04: With rice the issue since it's so common in vegan protein blends is that rice absorbs arsenic and heavy metals from the soil extremely well... ...and naturally ends up in the rice protein at the end obviously.

00:35:19: That's why whenever you buy a product like that, always check is there a lab certificate?

00:35:24: What did the heavy metal levels look Like?

00:35:26: right?

00:35:27: usually they test for lead cadmium arsenic and so on.

00:35:31: And so forth.

00:35:32: There should always be a certificate on file for vegan protein because The chance of it being contaminated Is just so much higher than with animal protein For instance.

00:35:43: that's worth pointing out Right?

00:35:46: Fava bean is probably the trendiest plant protein in Europe right now.

00:35:51: Pea and rice have been around a bit longer, but fava beans are brand new can be a great alternative to especially in a blend.

00:35:58: You just have to be careful if you have a glucose-six phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency meaning favism.

00:36:05: Fava Bean is where favism gets its name from.

00:36:08: so If you have that condition obviously cannot consume products with fava bean.

00:36:15: Ideally though, you'd already know if you had that.

00:36:17: You would no because it's not rare at all.

00:36:19: there are four hundred million people affected worldwide.

00:36:22: That's crazy.

00:36:23: Yeah Worldwide a ton of people really effected in Germany Though A very small percentage I mean It's Not common In Europe At All.

00:36:30: Its Obviously Becoming More Frequent Now With more Globalization Right But In Europe and Central Europe its Maybe like Zero Like zero point one five to zero Point.

00:36:37: two Percent Of People.

00:36:39: So Really Few right but And the rest The world Quite A lot In Some Places

00:36:43: Because it gives a survival advantage against malaria.

00:36:45: That's why its very, very common in African countries

00:36:48: Right right similar to sickle cell anemia Similar

00:36:52: the sickle-cell anemia exactly.

00:36:53: that's not very common here either and of course It offers no survival advantage over here

00:36:58: Not so exact.

00:36:59: quite the opposite great

00:37:00: right?

00:37:00: Over Here it's more of a selection factor

00:37:03: right Either way.

00:37:05: maybe back to pee rice and fava bean.

00:37:09: Pee honestly tastes the worst out of those.

00:37:11: It has this, I always call it a green taste...I think people can picture what that means.

00:37:15: like when you say it has a green-taste kind of thinking

00:37:17: of matcha right now.

00:37:18: yeah

00:37:18: like salady earthy kinda like that You know?

00:37:21: Like Yeah exactly.

00:37:22: but The problem is When you go and mix vanilla in there its just not great.

00:37:26: That's What i Think Is the classic vegan protein taste that pretty much everyone Has tasted before which is Just Kind Of nasty Right.

00:37:33: so pee is definitely by far the Worst Flavor wise.

00:37:36: But otherwise, out of these vegan alternatives it has a really good amino acid profile.

00:37:43: Rice is generally pretty pleasant kind of taste...

00:37:46: Matcha?

00:37:48: Yeah dry I just say and fava bean is actually the best of three.

00:37:52: Just with that let's call it genetic downside which means at the end of day It's important with this.

00:37:56: vegan protein powders like you said You try to blend them abit.

00:38:00: Most manufacturers do that anyway though And then they easily hit chemical scores around about one hundred forty and are basically on par with whey protein as far as the chemical score goes, right?

00:38:09: That by no means guarantees that.

00:38:11: The exact same amount of amino acids will actually be metabolized in the body but it does mean okay at least there's no limiting amino acid anymore.

00:38:19: um And that's already a huge step in the right direction.

00:38:22: naturally people have also done a few comparative studies between plant blends and whey proteins.

00:38:28: In A lot Of cases whey Proteins still performed a bit better.

00:38:32: If you mixed extra leucine into the plant proteins, then it was actually equivalent.

00:38:38: A plant protein blend with a bit of leucin was then equivalent to regular whey protein and good bioavailability, so that ignition key actually works for muscle protein synthesis.

00:39:00: You can always check the label on the back to see how much leucine is in there.

00:39:06: as a rule of thumb let's say if you're taking in thirty grams of plant protein ideally about two point five grams of that should be leucin and That's printed on the Back Of Every Package anyway So you Can Definitely Check That Out.

00:39:22: Then there's the free form amino acid category.

00:39:25: We've talked so much about the chemical score now, So it would seem obvious to say well Yeah There are plenty of EAA powders capsules and so on and so forth meaning essential Amino acids capsules And powders that really only contain these nine essential amino acids and On paper That seems super straightforward at first.

00:39:49: that still tells you very little About how I mean just because it's an EAA product doesn't mean all the amino acids are in a great ratio to each other, right?

00:40:00: So when you a product can have an amazing chemical score But it can also have a terrible chemical score if it's just thrown together haphazardly Right.

00:40:08: I'd assume or at least hope that The that a manufacturer makes sure It's a sensible ratio so that it actually supports muscle protein synthesis.

00:40:16: The only issue with ea is they taste completely awful If there's nothing else in them.

00:40:21: Uh, they usually taste super bitter like really unpleasant on the tongue.

00:40:25: These pure amino acids.

00:40:27: that's why you usually get a product that has some kind of solubilizer mixed in some flavoring added just so you can actually drink it there pretty expensive compared to way if you break it down per gram and They don't do much for satiety Right?

00:40:43: A lot people drink protein or bump up their protein intake On one hand Because maybe they want to build muscle, but on the other hand because they want a lose weight.

00:40:53: And when you're trying to lose weight protein powder is much better option than a classic EAA product because that feeling of fullness Is something you get from a complete protein powder That contains other components too and not just pure EAAs.

00:41:07: Yeah totally so EAA's.

00:41:09: I'd describe them more as like an athlete or optimization product You know?

00:41:14: just want to optimize the proportion of essential amino acids in your overall diet, right?

00:41:21: And that usually has the reason you maybe chug it after working out or during a workout because you're trusting.

00:41:27: studies say muscle protein synthesis works better.

00:41:31: The research world kind of contradicts itself but not totally out there.

00:41:38: how it actually works... It's really an optimization thing like going to replace a meal or anything with it, the way you could maybe argue.

00:41:47: With a protein powder right where?

00:41:49: You say okay one of three meals a day is a protein shake.

00:41:52: that makes zero sense within EAA Right.

00:41:56: and then there are BCAAs so called branch chain amino acids That's leucine isoleucine and valine.

00:42:03: those are those branched chain amino acid.

00:42:06: There are an insane number of products out there, right?

00:42:08: And that was... I don't think so much in EAA and EAA's so-called branch chain amino acids.

00:42:14: That is leucine, isoleucine and valine.

00:42:16: those are the branched chain amino acid.

00:42:19: They're are a insane amount of product out there Right!

00:42:23: But many years ago back when i'm still at school huge hype taking these BCAA supplements like that exactly.

00:42:29: it also bro science because they obviously make very small contribution to muscle protein synthesis.

00:42:38: For the exact same reason.

00:42:39: collagen doesn't because it's just an extract of a few amino acids, right?

00:42:42: So its just lusine, isolucine and valine in there And that rest is missing.

00:42:45: That why chemical score zero?

00:42:47: Because six essential amino acid are missing.

00:42:49: Three are in here but we need nine Which means if you only take BCAAs and no other protein, then the body has to get the other six essential amino acids from somewhere.

00:42:58: Right?

00:42:58: It turns into a bit of zero sum game like where does the body get those essential amino acid usually for muscle tissue right?

00:43:03: so little bit is pulled from muscle tissue than built back in two mussel tissues because You have three amino acids there.

00:43:09: So it doesn't make sense.

00:43:12: And as product itself I think that's why Fallen out of style.

00:43:19: Exactly, it's just not really up to date anymore because there are better products and nowadays There is so many different protein options And we know much more about what those compositions and components look like.

00:43:31: Sure, BCAAs have leucine in them.

00:43:33: And it might not be such a bad idea to say if you have a plant protein and don't have a separate leucin supplement but still some BCAA lying around at home... You throw a little bit of those BCAA's there then get that extra leucines and metabolize properly.

00:43:48: But as standalone product doesn't make much sense because its just missing the completeness.

00:43:56: Now we've talked so much about all different types of proteins And in the end, once again it mostly comes down to the quality of the product.

00:44:07: Yeah exactly so what we've basically learned is you can't really go that wrong with vegan protein.

00:44:14: You should look for a blend maybe check The chemical score real quick.

00:44:19: or With whey protein you can buy from all kinds Of brands anyway right?

00:44:23: The question you always have To ask yourself I think Is okay.

00:44:26: where does It come From?

00:44:27: has the quality been thoroughly tested, right?

00:44:30: Am I actually getting what I pay

00:44:31: for?".

00:44:32: And that's ultimately why we always preach saying okay check to see.

00:44:37: can you find a certificate?

00:44:39: is the manufacturer or seller transparent enough to make that public.

00:44:44: Do they basically let as consumer evaluate them in terms of quality?

00:44:51: so thats definitely interesting.

00:44:53: Another quality marker could be something like The Colonelist.

00:44:57: Honestly, I'd say for most people it's pretty irrelevant but its just tested specifically for doping substances.

00:45:06: The chance of a whey protein being contaminated with PED is extremely unlikely right?

00:45:11: But It's definitely another lab analysis that was done and per se therefore positive thing.

00:45:18: And yeah!

00:45:19: With vegan protein powders the chance heavy metal contamination Is simply higher.

00:45:24: we've actually already talked about

00:45:26: by a factor of nine.

00:45:27: Yeah, so it's... It really is significantly higher right?

00:45:30: So just pay little attention to that.

00:45:32: but nowadays a lot of brands are set up really well and you can definitely find the brand that fits you and also meets those exact quality standards.

00:45:42: There another pretty common practice across the whole protein market Right!

00:45:47: And thats called Amino spiking.

00:45:49: because among there are amino acids some more expensive in summer cheaper.

00:45:53: And the cheaper ones are especially glycine or towering and to bump up the protein content.

00:45:59: For example, a ton of glycino towering gets spiked into uh...or mixed in two let's say the protein blend you have.

00:46:07: that cuts costs.

00:46:10: but then I mean at the end of day it doesn't leave with particularly good amino acid profile right?

00:46:16: You just ended up an insane amount of glycein there for example.

00:46:20: But then if there's very little loosing in their or very little of another amino acid to a tiny degree, and you're stuck with the bad chemical score again.

00:46:27: Right?

00:46:27: Then nine essential amino acids aren't sufficiently present because the body needs all nine to build muscle.

00:46:33: that's why just check the label on the back always look at the amino acid profile proportions.

00:46:40: that super important.

00:46:41: like I said earlier in thirty grams have a plant protein.

00:46:45: about two-and-a half grams of that should be losing.

00:46:48: That's a sensible dose.

00:46:51: just pay little attention to that.

00:46:55: Yeah, and otherwise yeah the best take home message is really you can't go wrong when it comes to protein in the end.

00:47:03: also watch out for whether there are sweeteners maybe even added sugar or any flavorings.

00:47:10: always better without if still tastes good.

00:47:14: but its matter of habit all the time, you're just not going to like a protein product without sweeteners because it tastes like cardboard.

00:47:24: You know?

00:47:25: And that...you get used to that again really fast.

00:47:28: so you actually start liking that stuff again after two weeks.

00:47:31: if you generally cut back on sweetener's but its definitely a strong habituation effect you got there.

00:47:37: So keep an eye out for that.

00:47:39: That mainly helps with tolerance.

00:47:48: Then let's move on to our community hotline.

00:47:53: We got another question that I get too.

00:47:58: Read to you.

00:47:58: Thanks

00:48:00: Namely, I'm fifty four and have noticed since menopause so it's from a woman From Angelica That i'm losing muscle every morning?

00:48:10: I put ten grams of collagen in my coffee And otherwise eat mostly plant-based.

00:48:15: is that enough for My protein needs

00:48:18: Mm-hmm.

00:48:19: Yeah, so obviously There's very little context here right but I'd probably say Generally speaking from what?

00:48:26: I see it's usually not enough.

00:48:28: Usually It's just a bit too low relatively speaking.

00:48:33: What you want yeah So we always talk about that.

00:48:36: one point six grams of protein per kilogram of body weight.

00:48:41: Right That's really where you want to be and Typically on a plant based diet, that's obviously even harder.

00:48:47: You might typically need a tiny bit more to get enough protein actual absorbable protein usable protein That means uh...that definitely makes it harder too.

00:48:58: and as we just learned okay collagen It solves one problem is probably good for your bones Probably Good For Your Tendons Good For Skin So Definitely Solves One Problem But Is Probably Not Substantially Helpful From Muscle Maintenance.

00:49:12: That means in this case, especially when it comes to a woman who is since already post-menopausal you naturally also want to think about okay how's my bone health?

00:49:24: and its not necessarily enough just to supply the building blocks for the bone.

00:49:27: You always want that mechanical tension on the bone accordingly promote muscle maintenance as well.

00:49:34: Protein needs actually go up right around then at least thats current research consensus Leads to less muscle loss over the years and that's where you want to be right?

00:49:45: And that's why it probably needs to be a bit more.

00:49:48: And depending on your body weight, You need to take in more or less one point six grams per kilogram.

00:49:53: There

00:49:54: is also another phenomenon with like aging and thats called anabolic resistance which means that an older muscle Needs more protein and more leucine per meal for anything To happen at all.

00:50:08: That's Also Why The protein recommendation per kilogram of body weight goes up with age, like for a typical twenty-five year old that's somewhere in the range from one point two to one point five grams per kilogram.

00:50:22: Of body weight some say higher or lower.

00:50:24: I'm just going off the general official consensus and with age that goes up too over one point six grams per kilo gram of bodyweight which you mentioned earlier.

00:50:34: That simply because the body needs more building blocks.

00:50:39: the same effect, right?

00:50:40: Just always keep that in mind.

00:50:41: That's why you shouldn't ditch the collagen.

00:50:44: feel free to keep taking the collagen but just add extra protein on top.

00:50:47: and please don't forget strength training because like you said if there is no tension on the bone The bone will still develop osteoporosis regardless of how much collagen You take And regardless of How good your calcium metabolism Is for example Right.

00:51:00: so If the stimulus is missing.

00:51:08: And then we come to our final point, and that's the biohack.

00:51:12: We had a little chuckle earlier about what we called it namely The Lucene Breakfast Shot.

00:51:19: That is what we decided to call for now.

00:51:22: It really has very little to do with a shot.

00:51:25: Now you can explain What the Lucene breakfast shot Is all About.

00:51:29: Well yeah I love this name.

00:51:32: well its not really about a shot at All.

00:51:35: thats why Its so funny.

00:51:37: In any case, what's it really about?

00:51:40: in this episode we've essentially already talked at length.

00:51:43: About how the amino acid leucine particular is obviously super relevant for muscle protein synthesis kind of thing exactly.

00:51:53: so its very relevant and you just want to hit a certain amount of leucin per meal to stimulate that.

00:51:59: well said man.

00:52:00: And often turns out people manage pretty easily on evening usually fairly well lunch too But in the morning they just don't.

00:52:08: That means you really want to hit a certain threshold of leucine with every meal, and that's around two-and-a-half to three grams as we already discussed And You can easily do that Just by trying to incorporate something protein rich In the morning.

00:52:24: A lot of people are doing that nowadays With skier which is kind Of like... Kind of Like new yogurt.

00:52:29: Well not a new yogurt.

00:52:30: It's a yogurt that comes from The north right?

00:52:34: Um, and is super high in protein.

00:52:36: Uh it definitely has plenty of leucine in it so you can make use that or just use your protein powders to mix into oatmeal or cereal right?

00:52:45: So get a nice little protein shot because um that tends often be the meal for people who are very low on protein or skipped entirely.

00:52:57: And that's how you manage, first of all to hit your protein targets much better throughout the day.

00:53:02: Meaning You can spread it out nicely across meals and its super satiating too.

00:53:07: well said man

00:53:08: right but It is also about getting enough leucine and naturally animal and vegetarian options are a bit better than vegan ones.

00:53:15: But I would already learned A blend of pea and rice protein Can help.

00:53:19: two just want to hit That two-and-a-half to three gram mark Exactly.

00:53:25: That's what matters.

00:53:26: like you said the shame is that I also skip breakfast sometimes right which means my body starting out with zero grams of protein and you miss a real window to supply your body with enough protein, honestly ashamed because then you have to play catch up the rest of the day.

00:53:40: exactly we've been having to do that lately because funnily enough We both stopped eating breakfast Made it way harder on ourselves, huh?

00:53:48: Way harder.

00:53:48: On our selves.

00:53:49: now we have to eat a much bigger portion at night sleep worse because of it and so the vicious cycle begins.

00:53:54: not just kidding You can obviously still leave plenty time And there's nothing wrong with eating a big dinner as long As you leave enough buffer before Bedtime.

00:54:04: let's say

00:54:05: Exactly

00:54:06: definitely make sense.

00:54:08: Awesome.

00:54:08: So To wrap It up real quick in The end your total daily protein intake matters way more than the source right?

00:54:16: It makes total sense to look into this, flip around the protein powder tub you have at home.

00:54:20: See how much leucine is in there?

00:54:22: What's the chemical score if it's listed right meaning does the ratio between the nine essential amino acids count?

00:54:28: check out If You Have BCAA Powder At Home.

00:54:32: Exactly.

00:54:33: Feel Free To Finish It Off Say By Mixing It Into Normal Protein Powder.

00:54:37: Other Than That Its Just Not As Relevant Anymore as People Used To Think.

00:54:42: EAAs are interesting.

00:54:44: They can be a nice bonus like a selective add-on especially for athletes, but they don't replace standard protein powder either Especially when it comes to satiety and weight loss.

00:54:55: And otherwise as always look for certifications especially with plant based proteins.

00:55:00: heavy metals absolutely have to be tested for.

00:55:03: then you're pretty much good to go.

00:55:06: really the most important thing is just hitting your daily protein target.

00:55:12: you're in pretty good shape, at least on that front.

00:55:15: We are dropping another poll in the show notes on Spotify for you guys.

00:55:22: definitely check it out.

00:55:23: we also have a new website beyond-lifespan.com.

00:55:27: You'll find a recap of every episode over there what was all about.

00:55:31: A few specific terms explained more detail plus some sources.

00:55:36: You've got a newsletter too.

00:55:41: Go give that look, we'd love it!

00:55:43: We send out every Thursday along with the new episode meaning you won't miss a thing.

00:55:49: and other than that Max thank-you so much for sharing all your expertise or chatting with me.

00:55:53: thanks to everyone at home for listening watching what's working forward next time.

00:56:00: awesome Thanks

00:56:06: and bye.