Do Collagen Supplements Work? Evidence for Skin, Joints and Exercise

00:00:00: Twenty-five to thirty percent of all the protein we have in our body is collagen, you know?

00:00:05: Couldn't it be that protein powder ends up having the exact same effect?

00:00:08: Training for two months and saying now I'm ready for a half marathon.

00:00:11: The problem there's always the joints tendons and ligaments

00:00:14: especially this connective tissue just needs time to adapt

00:00:17: sometimes over six months.

00:00:19: typically It'll be hydrolyzed collagen peptides.

00:00:21: That is as i said also relevant for bioavailability And high molecular weight tends to be bad for bio availability.

00:00:27: this native, undenatured collagen that has a specific use case for osteoarthritis joint wear and tear autoimmune diseases which also exist.

00:00:39: Hello!

00:00:39: And welcome to new episode of Beyond Lifespan.

00:00:42: Hi Max

00:00:42: Hey there Mario

00:00:44: Today we're talking about Collagen as topic because There's been some controversy in the last I'd say five or six months.

00:00:52: First A very large study came out That said Collagen supplementation.

00:00:56: actually it doesn't really do that much.

00:00:58: Now, in January an even larger study actually came out that said hey!

00:01:02: Actually collagen is great for all kinds of things.

00:01:06: And we wanted to break down a bit today and also talk about what you might need to look at when supplementing... What Collagen actually is?

00:01:14: Give us some overview on it.

00:01:17: Yeah, Collagen itself basically do take it as a supplement?

00:01:24: I usually put it into my shake But I don't have a protein shake every day, so i probably manage about five days week.

00:01:31: So not quite everyday just because.

00:01:33: well life is the way life is um but... ...I take it Because I am convinced that It has a benefit even if its certainly Not huge in our age group.

00:01:44: Um..i think About taking it especially when I've done some intense workouts That also kind of went to my joints or whatever.

00:01:51: so whether Its A longer run like you yesterday for example then In my view, that makes sense.

00:01:57: And I also feel like you recover faster.

00:02:00: but That's really just a subjective feeling too.

00:02:03: Very good.

00:02:04: Yeah um i'm not that consistent when it comes to collagen either.

00:02:07: so It's not one of my regulars I'd say But I do take it a few times a week.

00:02:12: I just always put it in my coffee and I mean If I'm drinking coffee anyway then I'll just put collagen in there.

00:02:18: I don't taste the difference.

00:02:20: So yeah

00:02:21: Yeah, it depends on how much you put in.

00:02:22: It gets pretty sticky then.

00:02:24: yeah

00:02:24: i usually do You know half so one scoop instead of like two Then it's okay.

00:02:29: That's about seven and a half grams something around there that solid.

00:02:34: Exactly collagen itself is the most abundant protein in the body.

00:02:38: twenty five to thirty percent Of all the protein we have in our body Is collagen?

00:02:44: There are also twenty eight different types of collagen.

00:02:47: will go into a few very important ones in the moment.

00:02:51: Maybe first of all, many people think or would probably draw the conclusion and say yeah okay twenty five to thirty percent collagen Or Percent of the total protein is collagen.

00:03:04: then wouldn't it be much better instead of buying a protein powder?

00:03:08: To just buy a Collagen Powder?

00:03:11: but we'll come back to that later That this is not the case And that one doesn't replace the other simply because of a much more incomplete amino acid structure that compared to normal protein powder, let's say.

00:03:30: If you look at the marketing around collagen it is also like everyone promises above all more beautiful skin smoother skin fewer wrinkles.

00:03:40: It can also do something for the joints, then it might still be relevant for the muscles.

00:03:44: Then you get better hair stronger nails.

00:03:47: So basically like The Holy Grail For the whole cosmetics or beauty industry.

00:03:51: I'd say and Yes there is data on that but its not that overwhelming.

00:03:57: But as i said ,I don't want to get ahead of myself.

00:04:00: That's maybe just a little introduction To the topic.

00:04:07: Yeah,

00:04:11: so actually the most important ones are one to five.

00:04:15: collagen types One-to-five but through food you usually only absorb about one two three anyway also in supplements.

00:04:22: Only one to three are actually Contained.

00:04:25: that's what's in skin Tendons joints or bones and also muscle meat.

00:04:31: those of these forms one to Three mostly mainly one and three.

00:04:35: even If you break it down completely, its actually almost only type one by a wide margin because that's what is mainly in skin tendons and bones.

00:04:44: And thats also what you absorb through supplements.

00:04:47: Otherwise of course still get some in various bone broths and meat itself Also has collagen there The focus more on type three and less on Type One

00:05:00: So

00:05:01: always bit different if I go thru here.

00:05:07: Two is more cartilage, interverdebral discs so connective tissue between the bones.

00:05:12: Type three then tends to be skin as well very close to type one but also very strongly represented in skeletal muscle.

00:05:21: Then type four basal lamina.

00:05:24: So how do you describe that?

00:05:26: It's basically a layer of epithelial cells and basement membrane.

00:05:30: That means it's just We still have in our cell layers, it's not that important.

00:05:36: Like a filter?

00:05:38: So... Not super-important to memorize but of course is highly relevant for bodies.

00:05:43: That means we also need type IV But we can make all those ourselves.

00:05:47: Type V then especially very abundant in connective tissue And if you go really deep Also the placenta and fetal tissues or tissue from fetus An unborn baby so to speak right.

00:06:03: We don't really need to dive much deeper than that because like I said for us when looking at the question of whether collagen intake through food is somehow relevant, weather it has a better or more relevant effect.

00:06:15: then say protein intake?

00:06:17: Whether we might need more of as we age this question only comes up with types one two three anyway Because those are the ones you can actually get through.

00:06:26: supplements is actually only made I'd say from animal products or in some cases also from marine sources like corals for example.

00:06:38: And you mainly get those types of that.

00:06:40: and if think about a classic diet back then the day there would have been gelatin maybe, bone broth?

00:06:47: You're mostly going to be having type one two three Maybe a little bit of four and five but it's very, very little right.

00:06:53: so you're really talking mainly about these types in.

00:06:55: those are the ones.

00:06:56: You should remember one to three and ninety percent.

00:06:58: that is already type-one anyway when your talk about supplements right?

00:07:01: So just put into perspective

00:07:04: maybe for quick clarification.

00:07:07: there are twenty eight different types of collagen right?

00:07:10: There are lot.

00:07:11: how do they differ?

00:07:12: basically its about the spatial structure or configuration that this tiny molecules have.

00:07:20: One is great for strength another.

00:07:22: Is a great for elasticity?

00:07:24: Another is great against pressure resistance or against shear forces and That's why it makes sense that type two is in cartilage, right where you have a lot of these pressure loads And also a lot if the sheer forces and Something like that wouldn't work in bone Of course Right.

00:07:43: so In that sense just so you can picture a bit how The configuration looks in the body And that they all have a different function and are therefore used differently.

00:07:55: You already mentioned collagen in food, there the classic things skin cartilage.

00:08:01: so everywhere we have collagen animals have it too.

00:08:04: of course That means if you eat these parts of animals then our their for used differently.

00:08:13: You already mentioned collagen in food.

00:08:14: There are the classic things skin, cartilage.

00:08:18: so everywhere we have collagen animals Have it too.

00:08:20: of course that means if you eat these parts of animals then you also get collagen and your diet right?

00:08:24: So-so We wouldn't eat bones.

00:08:26: That's a bit difficult but when It comes to When it comes to skin when it comes To cartilage sometimes two tendons.

00:08:32: That's not the tastiest I would say Because it's a big tough And it's not particularly flavorful.

00:08:37: But you can remember it very simply like this, right?

00:08:40: So if meat is very, very gristly then it has a lot of collagen because tendons are made up of a very large part of collagen.

00:08:46: And you also mentioned gelatin.

00:08:48: so pure gelatine has an enormously high collagen or protein content Right!

00:08:53: It consists almost ninety percent collagen Or protein.

00:08:57: That's really interesting In organ meats.

00:09:02: there're lots of collagen in here.

00:09:04: That's

00:09:05: so basically everywhere.

00:09:06: Yeah, yeah.

00:09:07: So I mean animals are also made up of a very large percentage Of collagen.

00:09:11: that's why if you eat animal products in the end Also eggs for example then they also contain this specific amino acids that The body needs to be able To make collagen itself.

00:09:20: now Collagen isn't everything right but You also need A few additional building blocks so that the whole collagen production In the body actually works.

00:09:28: and There is one in particular

00:09:33: You mean when it comes to the cofactors?

00:09:35: Okay, yeah exactly.

00:09:37: So there of course vitamin C is very relevant.

00:09:41: you actually absolutely need that too To be able to metabolize collagen in any way to be able build collagen.

00:09:47: two That's called hydroxylation right Vitamin c so you have to remember indispensable.

00:09:52: You don't need incredibly large amounts Right!

00:09:55: That means The classic hundred milligrams a day usually Completely sufficient, which is what would be recommended purely from the dietary guidelines.

00:10:05: But of course it can also make sense that if you take a high-dose supplement You might additionally add vitamin C. Yeah

00:10:10: exactly

00:10:12: Like I said usually get that easily from your diet anyway right?

00:10:15: but Vitamin c is indispensable.

00:10:17: That means if you have a diet very very low in vitamin c It can of course be that collagen synthesis In general is disrupted.

00:10:24: so not just not just supplementation but even the body's own collagen synthesis Which is happening any way Right?

00:10:29: Yeah, and if you have a severe deficiency of course.

00:10:32: You get scurvy right.

00:10:33: maybe some of you Have heard that was also relevant on ships in the past where they had almost no vitamin C intake simply because The food They took with them On the ships That just couldn't spoil so quickly.

00:10:50: And thats why there was practically No Vitamin C In it.

00:10:52: Then they figured out that Vitamin C is cause Of this disease.

00:10:56: everyone Had lemons or apples, something that also contains vitamin C onto the ship and then everyone was at least doing better under circumstances didn't have scurvy anymore.

00:11:10: So typical symptoms of that are classic bleeding gums right?

00:11:14: Yeah

00:11:15: yeah exactly.

00:11:15: collagen synthesis is basically disrupted Exactly!

00:11:18: And thats why it doesn't work.

00:11:19: Other than that its relevant you need zinc copper silicon and manganese those a few other trace elements that are very relevant.

00:11:28: Zinc anyway for practically everything in the body, right?

00:11:31: So that's super, super extensive and its range of effects.

00:11:35: And copper is needed for cross-linking.

00:11:37: Silicon supports the strength of skin and connective tissue and manganese Is needed for recycling an amino acid proline which you basically need for collagen synthesis.

00:11:48: Collagen is super important.

00:11:51: The second most important thing is that you also have enough vitamin C in the modern diet.

00:11:55: Like I said, no problem at all.

00:11:57: so You definitely reach this minimum level.

00:11:59: and the other four zinc copper silicon and manganese are also very relevant there.

00:12:04: Would you say we eat less collagen today than in the past?

00:12:07: Mm-hmm Yeah i've also looked into the topic again of course because people Say that's so easily to day right.

00:12:12: And i mean i think it's probably true To a certain extent.

00:12:15: i mean if you think about It like when i think Of my grandmother how she still cooks and then Often bone broth involved Or goulash is prepared more often, which is also much more sinew we meet right?

00:12:30: I would argue that maybe in the past a bit more of Different forms of collagen were consumed than just classic muscle meat.

00:12:36: Right but There isn't really any data out there on that yet.

00:12:41: So it hasn't really been proven.

00:12:43: That means you could say okay It's an observation that's been made and Maybe it's true But it's not like its scientifically backed.

00:12:50: That means it could easily be that.

00:12:52: It's just not the case.

00:12:54: Because on the other hand, you could of course also argue yeah meat consumption is still relatively high today.

00:13:00: So maybe Not that big of a difference but that may be.

00:13:03: maybe a few forms of collagen especially type one Are consumed less often

00:13:09: although with meat?

00:13:09: Of course I mean Yeah sure meat consumption that has gone up enormously.

00:13:14: On the otherhand this very lean meat is also very dominant, right?

00:13:18: So anywhere there are sinews people don't really want that anymore.

00:13:21: It's practically cut out already.

00:13:22: in that respect the proportion there is maybe a bit lower again.

00:13:27: Totally so it's plausible.

00:13:28: let's put

00:13:28: it absolutely especially when I think of how one of my grandmas uh... How they used to eat.

00:13:35: she also grew up on a farm.

00:13:37: When they slaughtered a pig.

00:13:40: everything was used

00:13:44: Even the foot

00:13:46: Everything.

00:13:46: so nothing was left behind.

00:13:48: we talked about that recently and the skin was eaten, bones were used for bone broth.

00:13:58: So in that respect recycling is definitely very good probably collagen content high too.

00:14:06: Now a common criticism when it comes to collagen supplements collagen powder, collagen peptides and everything else out there is that it doesn't even get absorbed.

00:14:17: Right?

00:14:18: So you put in your coffee or you drink it Or You Put It In A Shake Or In Yogurt And Its Just Broken Down By The Body Anyway And Doesn'T Contribute To Actual Collagen Synthesis At All.

00:14:34: That Was Partly Correct A few years ago, I would say when they weren't working with these peptides yet right?

00:14:43: so this hydrolyzed collagen.

00:14:45: With these peptide that are very small simply because if you consume gelatin for example the collagen in there has a high molecular weight.

00:14:55: it's large molecule and can then only be absorbed by the body or theoretically it must be predigested to absorb more.

00:15:08: well when it comes to these peptides, this hydrolyzed very heavily broken down collagen then of course can be absorbed much better.

00:15:18: Exactly yeah so was basically even investigated.

00:15:20: there are also studies on that actually where they looked at long chain high molecular weight collagen look the absorption and how its metabolized.

00:15:34: Yes, it is partly digested in such a way that it won't actually have an impact but partly at will right.

00:15:39: so partly exactly.

00:15:40: these different diet by tri-tripeptides are formed which are relevant to stimulate collagen production and the cells.

00:15:48: There there are few examples like hydroxyproline generally proline.

00:15:56: they have to their receptors for that in the cells which intern stimulates collagen production And there is actually demonstrably also data showing that this is actually stimulated by it.

00:16:06: So, that's the case right?

00:16:09: But of course now what if you have a product which consists only of dye and tripeptides?

00:16:15: so probably better bioavailability.

00:16:17: I'm just putting out here its not one hundred percent clear.

00:16:21: then these high hydrolyzed collagen peptide that normally get today.

00:16:26: they are much more bio available because already broken down shorter than gelatin exactly.

00:16:31: So maybe that's for context, but it is this true and has also proven the gelatin.

00:16:34: Also gets absorbed right?

00:16:35: It's just not absorbed as efficiently of course.

00:16:38: That's the difference in the end.

00:16:39: Right

00:16:40: yeah a smaller fraction is simply Absorbed and metabolized by the body in the right direction Let's say

00:16:46: exactly And otherwise it's basically Just like a protein powder In the end with The worst amino acid profile

00:16:50: Exactly exactly.

00:16:52: let's move on to the study situation As I mentioned in the introduction about I'd say half a year ago, i don't remember exactly when it actually was.

00:17:01: There was a big outcry and then it was drummed through all the media.

00:17:04: somehow watch-out your collagen supplements are totally useless.

00:17:09: now in january A new study came out.

00:17:11: end of january.

00:17:12: uh everything Was drummed Through The Media again.

00:17:14: yeah collagen isn't that bad after All right but Of course It's not the savior.

00:17:18: so it's always been met with a lot of skepticism.

00:17:20: But it's much more positive Now Right?

00:17:22: The second Study was also Larger than the first one.

00:17:26: Above all, they looked at many different areas of application.

00:17:29: Right?

00:17:30: So with the new one in January, They look that joints...they looked at skin..They looked muscles tendons ligaments so the complete spectrum where collagen can make a contribution.

00:17:42: let's say and yeah!

00:17:44: That was actually quite promising because there is very good data especially in the areas of skin and joints

00:17:53: right?!

00:17:53: Especially when you combine several studies.

00:17:56: And that is actually quite promising.

00:17:59: You just always have to keep in mind the effects are not huge, so... Just because you take fifteen grams of collagen a day, collagen powder, collagen peptides ...you can't expect the osteoarthritis if suddenly reversed right?

00:18:16: So it's something where we do expectation management as well Make a contribution.

00:18:23: You can also make a contribution with the collagen rich diet, but that won't reverse or undo certain damage That has occurred right?

00:18:32: But of course going forward it Can slow things down a bit.

00:18:37: Yeah exactly so.

00:18:38: overall there are actually extremely many studies on collagen.

00:18:41: So a lot Has really been done There.

00:18:44: Much Of It Of Course Industry Funded As They Say But Also A Lot Not industry funded.

00:18:50: and The mix is what matters in the end, and I mean you can't just dismiss something because it was done by a pharmaceutical company.

00:18:55: Because otherwise you could practically use no medication out there right?

00:18:59: So that would be nonsense too!

00:19:01: That means overall very positive... ...that also came again from this recent meta-analysis where i think over four hundred studies or five hundred studies were looked at.. ..and then again an effect on skin....on joints etc.

00:19:17: was shown, and then last year there was this somewhat skeptical meta-analysis which is now somehow in the contrast to it.

00:19:26: To everything else actually right?

00:19:28: And what's been done here?

00:19:32: that means many studies were summarized at the beginning.

00:19:37: first of all a sensitivity analysis was simply taken out first right just to bring the bulk of studies a bit closer together so that you take those outliers, those outlying studies were somehow too good.

00:19:55: maybe it's true.

00:19:58: First thats what they did and in next step for example also made many other subgroups which means they took all industry sponsored studies for example.

00:20:09: then don't have that much left down I think only nine studies.

00:20:15: So.

00:20:17: and Then of course you have the problem that you then simply have a significantly lower number of patients who were examined.

00:20:24: so That's another factor.

00:20:25: That means statistical significance becomes harder right to achieve especially because you often had relatively short short-term studies, right?

00:20:34: That means that also makes it harder.

00:20:37: And as a result because statistical significance was basically thrown out by that The colleagues said okay yeah we only looked at the studies that are not industry funded.

00:20:47: And what came out of it was that no significant improvement on skin aging and so on could be shown, basically how they concluded this study is how abstract was finished in the end.

00:21:03: that was result but that's a bit strange.

00:21:07: many reacted to that because Because because when you looked at it more closely, It turned out okay.

00:21:13: But actually out of these nine studies that were left seven was still positive.

00:21:20: So they definitely went in a positive direction.

00:21:22: only one went In the negative direction and one was a bit Was a bit in the middle so had mixed results.

00:21:28: That means it's actually still a very clear issue right but just not quite significant.

00:21:32: because yeah The sample size was simply much smaller.

00:21:35: And that's where we are again in this problematic area Right?

00:21:39: Yeah Yeah, so you can argue in both directions.

00:21:42: I would argue since that's the only thing you could actually say against it when divided into subgroups like that and then still have something positive just not statistically significant anymore.

00:21:53: but your allowed to look at a bigger picture.

00:21:55: also look at industry funded studies again.

00:21:58: okay wait a minute is quite clear right?

00:22:01: So i would argue this was my opinion That this was somewhat misguided clickbait driven, I think meta analysis since the overall situation is already very clear.

00:22:13: Right?

00:22:14: And then say okay yeah wait a minute.

00:22:16: actually it's quite clear right.

00:22:19: so i would argue and this just my opinion that This was actually somewhat misguided A bit clickbait-driven.

00:22:27: I Think Meta Analysis Since The Overall Situation Is Already Very Clear.

00:22:33: So Yeah That'S My Assessment.

00:22:35: I don't know how you perceived It but it annoyed me.

00:22:37: Yeah,

00:22:38: totally.

00:22:38: So maybe for anyone who doesn't know what statistically significant means right?

00:22:41: It basically means sufficiently backed up against chance.

00:22:45: if something isn't statistically significant then it could also just happen by chance for example and that's standard practice in science to apply it that way.

00:22:53: but we also know For example the smaller pool is The fewer studies I have the smaller is becoming this level of happiness significance.

00:23:04: or something is actually its line of study to missing a absolutely gimmed at Minga, they've missing little bit.

00:23:09: But King is on top of me, stop physical plows.

00:23:11: that before it also was on.

00:23:12: And he's not good at making you do as they stand with a family.

00:23:15: how before the rock and more concern fit by Kesey kach if we got back to this one came bearish with me.

00:23:19: so though I couldn't get it's overland funding.

00:23:21: So there's a very good direction.

00:23:23: That's what high steers have had.

00:23:25: So I see its similarity.

00:23:27: plenty of other meta analysis.

00:23:28: This just want to make waves again?

00:23:29: I think because it also fit the narrative that currently everyone is stirring up bit of kitchen towards dietary supplements.

00:23:36: What i'm perceiving a bit at.

00:23:39: If you look at the media a bit then there's always a lot of skepticism being worked with and saying, You don't need any of this.

00:23:45: And they bring in university professor who confirms like yeah not everyone benefits from it.

00:23:52: Yeah Of course Not Everyone Benefits From It But just have to do that With A Bit Of Goal Right?

00:23:57: Do That With An Objective And I think that collagen can definitely make a contribution there.

00:24:02: In this new meta-analysis it looked at five hundred seventy three papers, right?

00:24:07: So much broader.

00:24:09: There were also several reviews included.

00:24:12: so reviews are usually those studies That have already looked at several studies pooled together anyway and they're actually across the board.

00:24:21: So it wasn't just significant because you also always have to distinguish.

00:24:25: If you have a huge study, right?

00:24:27: Then statistically significant doesn't automatically mean clinically meaningful.

00:24:32: Because if...because if you have the difference of zero point one percent in whatever Right then that can still be statistically significant because You looked at a million people.

00:24:44: But maybe get away from the topic and make it clearer if your LDL drops by zero point then that's not clinically meaningful, right?

00:24:53: It might be statistically significant.

00:24:55: But whether it is a one hundred sixteen or one hundred fifteen point five doesn't matter.

00:25:00: so thats not relevant.

00:25:02: and in this new to get back the topic of this new meta-analysis from January with these very many studies... ...it wasn't just statistically significant but above all clinically meaningful!

00:25:13: So they really saw A reduction in when it came to joints and athletes that they saw a reduction of pain, for example.

00:25:22: That people who trained very intensively also saw better profile on the tendons than in ligaments where they were simply more stable And more resilient.

00:25:33: Also for high training load For example They also saw changes in their skin.

00:25:37: So I think It's great all these studies and analyses exist.

00:25:44: we should also take a closer look and of course, also look at positive studies.

00:25:50: How do these results actually come about right?

00:25:52: And get a bit of a broader picture I'll say because that certainly supports the whole thing.

00:25:58: well to maybe go into the individual areas a bit more for this skin i'd say The data is probably the best.

00:26:09: Right!

00:26:10: Get a bit Because that certainly supports the whole thing.

00:26:16: well to maybe go into the individual areas a bit more for this skin I'd say.

00:26:21: The data is probably the best right

00:26:24: among the best.

00:26:25: definitely, i don't even know if it's almost just as good for joints but um...i think for joints its also been easier to prove often and clearer.

00:26:34: basically with skin what about?

00:26:36: you want to achieve better skin moisture, so hydration as they'd call it in technical jargon.

00:26:41: And you want better elasticity which is what these collagen fibers are ultimately relevant for and especially as we age our skin loses more and more collagen Which has also proven that with age the collagen content of the skin simply decreases.

00:26:53: That means you can- You'll see this static wrinkles For example Especially an older people.

00:26:56: They certainly have a bit to do with moisture again Right?

00:26:59: But their also have to do With lack of elasticity.

00:27:05: with collagen, then you improve exactly those two aspects.

00:27:08: So skin moisture and elasticity can be positively influenced by it.

00:27:13: And those are basically the two most important things I'd say for joints.

00:27:17: It's more about like you mentioned earlier is more about pain symptoms also but function.

00:27:21: that means Can You actually move your joint smoothly without having pain?

00:27:26: Do have some kind of maybe also limiting factors?

00:27:28: let us a kind of joint grating right or general stiffness which was also caused by inflammation Right, so they looked at that too and the data is actually very clear.

00:27:38: That it definitely has positive clinically positive effects even if It's not The world right?

00:27:43: So you're not going to make the I don't know paralyzed walk again But are you definitely?

00:27:48: if you have stress knees for example or stressed stressed hip joints You can definitely have a positive effect from it And thereby definitely halt and reduce degenerative processes and also inflammatory processes.

00:28:02: Exactly, yeah.

00:28:02: And then generally of course it's also about sports and connective tissue.

00:28:06: that is a topic frequently.

00:28:07: looked at It simply how does my body react to sport?

00:28:12: That means if I went for twenty kilometer run the day before and hadn't done this in two years My tendons are all completely shot.

00:28:21: the next day If i consume more collagen my tendons will adapt better to these new conditions Especially adapt faster because you just have more of this stimulation of collagen production in the body.

00:28:36: Because as we already mentioned, the collagen you consume is ultimately broken down into these diantripeptides and there are receptors for those in the cells.

00:28:45: that then stimulates the bodies own collagen production.

00:28:49: so obviously it has benefits too which means recovery is a big headline.

00:28:55: You also see There are many people whose goal is to participate in a running race, be it half marathon or a marathon.

00:29:04: And I think that... Many people who have certain basic fitness and endurance move every now-and then from pure physical performance very quickly get the point of at least running a half marathon through the finish line right?

00:29:21: But often In in and then maybe I don't know train for two months, and say now i'm ready for a half marathon.

00:29:29: And regardless of the time you will probably also reach to finish line right?

00:29:32: The problem there is always the joints and tendons and ligaments.

00:29:35: they have much longer adaptation time To adjust to this load.

00:29:40: write everything we'll hurt afterwards simply because the body wasn't ready For this load.

00:29:45: right cartilage tendons joins.

00:29:47: They need an adaptation off sometimes over six months until you even get us used to this regular running, too.

00:29:55: This heavy load over several kilometers and hours right?

00:29:58: So in that respect You always have to keep that in mind because otherwise it can quickly backfire.

00:30:05: Yeah yeah It'll definitely be painful.

00:30:07: Let's put it that way You'll definitely have a week after.

00:30:09: That will be pretty tough.

00:30:10: And its Even the case that The bones In the legs Can actually They can Get cracks Right!

00:30:14: Then you de facto Have slightly fractured Legs.

00:30:19: Runners Actually know that quite well especially runners who run a lot and also run frequently, maybe even do competitive runs.

00:30:26: almost all of them will have had that at some point.

00:30:28: That they actually had slight bone fractures and then had to take it easy for a bit longer because the body just needs... Especially this connective tissue just needs time to adapt.

00:30:38: That sometimes takes several weeks right?

00:30:40: For you to slowly heal these bone fractured again And of course that leads into inflammation in the entire musculoskeletal system.

00:30:46: Yeah totally I mean the muscles are are adaptable much faster exactly and that's the problem.

00:30:53: That sometimes tempts you to do too much, right?

00:30:57: Because you think yeah muscularly You can manage it quite well.

00:31:01: in terms of wind...you keep up quite well.

00:31:03: but bones joints cartilage they resented.

00:31:06: if you step on the gas Too early a certain adaptation reaction is completely normal.

00:31:12: But this recovery then drags for several days And you still have knee pain and ligaments pull.

00:31:18: Then you should maybe just see that as a sign to do a few strengthening exercises first right before even start.

00:31:25: In all the studies now we've talked about studies usually find comparison.

00:31:30: group A takes collagen and group B take nothing or placebo.

00:31:35: so also powder dissolve too but in end it's not collagen or protein powder either.

00:31:44: One small weakness that you have with the studies is that?

00:31:47: You always compare collagen with a placebo and you don't compare collagen With a conventional protein powder, for example because then you could actually say for sure.

00:31:56: You need exactly The collagen for the effects And a protein powder doesn't have such a good profile as of now.

00:32:04: You can't actually say that at all.

00:32:05: right

00:32:06: Exactly you can't say it one hundred percent.

00:32:08: so there's still this mechanistic issue that we know.

00:32:11: okay it's broken down into these d and try peptides.

00:32:14: And they definitely stimulate college in production, we no that right.

00:32:18: the issue now is just OK.

00:32:19: to some extent you could also get them from protein powder.

00:32:22: And protein powder per se actually has a much better amino acid profile as I think we also briefly said at the beginning.

00:32:28: um...and..you got many of the relevant amino acids or rather you get almost all of them form protein powder right?

00:32:35: And-that where the question arises.

00:32:37: bit ok yeah Couldn't it even be that protein powder ultimately has exactly the same effect?

00:32:42: And we actually don't have clarity on that yet.

00:32:45: So, uh... We just don't know that yet.

00:32:47: so It could actually be the case.

00:32:49: I would just claim..I Don't think so.

00:32:52: i do believe That there's still a small edge with collagen now in relation to these use cases we discussed.

00:33:00: But i could also imagine that if The protein were To compete against placebo You Would Also Have A certain Effect!

00:33:08: the gap between protein and collagen is significantly smaller than between placebo in college.

00:33:15: But that remains to be seen how that develops.

00:33:18: ideally you would do a stud three arm study right where you have college, Where are you have protein?

00:33:24: And were you have placebo?

00:33:27: because if you only do collagen and protein again then In the end all the collagen opponents have a card to play against say but you haven't compared it with placebo yet Right.

00:33:37: So in that respect, ideally you would just run something with three groups and then you would know more.

00:33:44: it will definitely be very exciting.

00:33:46: as I said i also think that collagen is still a bit better than comparing it to conventional protein powder.

00:33:52: but yeah its an educated guess right?

00:33:57: You already mentioned we lose collagen over time.

00:34:01: That's why it actually has the classic longevity molecule Because everything that is somehow about when it's about longevity, when its' about anti-aging which a very old fashioned term I'd say.

00:34:14: You look at what decreases over time and collagen also decreases overtime And indeed starts at twenty five.

00:34:20: That means has already started.

00:34:22: for us too one to two percent annually.

00:34:24: the production already drops.

00:34:29: That doesn't mean that the amount directly decreases, but the production just decreases and collagen also gets damaged over time.

00:34:36: And then has to be renewed again and again.

00:34:40: So

00:34:41: naturally it's really problematic for women.

00:34:48: actually in first five years after menopause you lose almost thirty percent of your collagen.

00:34:58: after menopause also have issues with osteopenia, right?

00:35:03: So not directly.

00:35:04: You don't slip directly into osteoporosis.

00:35:07: but you slip very quickly in to this osteopenias where the bones just become less resilient a bit softer let's say and not as well mineralized anymore.

00:35:17: it is double edged sword on one hand we had collagen and then on other hand we have the mineralization of bone itself through calcium which you need too.

00:35:28: So the estrogen drops off and that results directly in a massive loss of collagen, right?

00:35:33: You have to imagine normally you lose about five to ten percent in five years.

00:35:38: Right And there it's just directly thirty percent simply because the estrogen drops off.

00:35:44: so It's already pretty impressive.

00:35:47: That doesn't mean at thirty immediately notice like oh look now There are wrinkles my bones aren't as resilient anymore but rather its process drags on over decades.

00:35:57: It's a bone building.

00:35:58: Yeah,

00:35:59: and maybe when you're approaching forty or in your mid forties then You see the first signs of this collagen problem?

00:36:07: it's yeah...it starts on a molecular level much earlier And all the visible signs Then just come A few years Or decades later right..and by visible I mean In the sense Of wrinkles & skin.

00:36:22: What you don't See for example is that The elasticity of the blood vessels also suffers.

00:36:27: So also in the blood vessels, when we're young they are very stretchable and agile.

00:36:33: They can stretch far or contract quickly again through muscles over time become stiffer naturally due to collagen loss which contributes high blood pressure.

00:36:46: it's something that women after menopause have to struggle with directly.

00:36:56: Yeah, you have to keep that in the back of your mind.

00:36:59: For athletes it's similar especially if you do a lot of sports and running too where you always have these pressure loads.

00:37:09: It makes a difference whether you're twenty or sixty not just purely from physical performance but also from damage that the body sustains after an equivalent session because repair process just doesn't work as well anymore.

00:37:29: And what is generally bad for collagen?

00:37:31: to maybe wrap up the topic?

00:37:32: his son.

00:37:33: so UV radiation UV radiation destroys collagen because it activates enzymes.

00:37:39: these are matrix metalloproteinases.

00:37:41: that just slice of the college right?

00:37:43: That means skin less elastic, less stable and thick.

00:37:48: Sugar is also very bad because normally you imagine it like this.

00:37:51: You have a collagen network that constantly glides over itself, right?

00:37:56: And if you visualize two layers of fabric gliding over each other... If you drip glue on them nothing glides anymore.

00:38:10: and sugar has exactly the same effect in the body.

00:38:13: So it just doesn't stay as elastic, not as mobile and much more brittle because the whole thing also gets stiffer.

00:38:20: And last but not least smoking and stress have a similar effect because they also inhibit collagen regeneration.

00:38:28: so there stop smoking.

00:38:32: Stress too?

00:38:33: Exactly!

00:38:35: That's of course always not that easy.

00:38:37: you can get support for everything in that respect definitely worth it, not just because of the collagen but also because very many other things I'd say.

00:38:49: Very nice yeah.

00:38:50: so that maybe on a side note as little wrap up now.

00:38:55: we've already actually talked about where collagen makes the most sense right?

00:39:00: That's skin and joints in cartilage naturally tendons and connective tissue everywhere collagen occurs in the body is also make sense

00:39:09: almost every way

00:39:10: exactly Exactly.

00:39:12: It can, of course also support that.

00:39:15: and let's look more in the direction... In the direction of supplementation.

00:39:20: I said at the beginning there are a few different forms you could buy on-the market.

00:39:27: What form is there?

00:39:30: So normally i'd say over ninety percent Collagen peptides.

00:39:39: it'll always say hydrolyzed somewhere on the website or in a product probably.

00:39:44: You should at least look out for that is as I said also relevant for bioavailability, its just significantly better than classic gelatin and that's what mostly used in studies right.

00:39:55: so thats something very well researched there.

00:39:59: they looked okay.

00:40:00: the peptide shouldn't be too long to heavy either high molecular weight And high and a high molecular weight is tendentially bad for bioavailability because then it can't get through the intestinal walls, so on to where It maybe should go right?

00:40:16: So that's like the most important form.

00:40:19: What you normally Also know gelatin as I said Normally isn't really around as a supplement anymore.

00:40:28: much longer chained You know from gummy bears who might know it from Jell-O & stuff.

00:40:34: You still get a lot of collagen out of that too.

00:40:36: It's probably still relatively healthy, like I said but just not the same level of bioavailability we know from hydrolyzed college and products.

00:40:45: then you wrote something else down.

00:40:47: i actually didn't know that one yet undernatured type two collagen.

00:40:51: would you like to say something about?

00:40:52: That

00:40:53: yeah exactly.

00:40:54: so this is basically as far something that was specifically developed for.

00:41:04: And it has a slightly different mechanism for boosting collagen production, because It's not about providing building blocks like with classic collagen hydrolysate or collagen peptides where you take say ten fifteen twenty grams and so on but rather very low doses even in the milligram range.

00:41:22: You know thirty forty milligrams.

00:41:28: We also have a very, very large immune system in the gut especially in the small intestine.

00:41:32: Especially towards the end part of the smaller intestine there are these things called pyrus patches.

00:41:39: that's just the collective term for this whole immune system and this native undenatured collagen.

00:41:47: it sort of activates collagen production via the pyrous patches.

00:41:52: interesting well okay so

00:41:53: or rather also stopped, right?

00:41:58: So it's a double-edged sword I'd say.

00:42:01: It's mainly about stopping the breakdown but in a way is also about stimulating collagen production...I find that very interesting especially how you study something like this and get an idea to develop something like these.

00:42:19: collagen product that you take for skin or for tendons and ligaments, but it's actually specifically about joint wear-and-tear.

00:42:27: So maybe we should add that its not as broad spectrum as collagen peptides or hydrolyzed collagen But has a specific use case for osteoarthritis Joint wear and tear autoimmune diseases which also exist.

00:42:40: so even if you have Lyme disease can eventually affect the joints too For something like this.

00:42:48: Yeah, native undernatured collagen might also be quite exciting.

00:42:52: I haven't seen it as a product anywhere myself but it came up in the research and that's why i definitely wanted to... Right

00:42:57: okay not keep it from us at all

00:42:59: To include it.

00:43:00: And there is something else which is recombinant human collagen.

00:43:05: That's relatively new.

00:43:09: We always say Collagen is animal based.

00:43:11: That's one hundred percent true.

00:43:13: When you talk about collagen.

00:43:15: There are no vegan collagen.

00:43:18: If it's we'll get to that in a moment with vegan collagen.

00:43:20: It's always certain precursor molecules, but apparently there is VG.

00:43:25: I mean Collagen of vegan origin and that is this recombinant human collagen which has produced using genetically modified yeast or bacteria so that can be E. Coli.

00:43:37: That can also happen via via yeast fermentation?

00:43:44: produce collagen that is structurally one hundred percent identical to what we have in the body.

00:43:49: right.

00:43:49: so

00:43:50: okay.

00:43:50: We already know from many other substances and supplements now too, right?

00:43:54: Exactly resveratrol also sometimes no longer obtained that it's structurally.

00:44:01: Yeah,

00:44:03: we already know that from many other substances and supplements now.

00:44:06: Exactly.

00:44:06: Resveratrol is also sometimes no longer obtained from contaminated Japanese nutweed but from yeast fermentation for example.

00:44:14: And that seems to work for collagen too.

00:44:16: They're also super pure right?

00:44:17: So you don't have to worry about any contamination.

00:44:18: But of course it's enormously expensive.

00:44:20: so That can be compared in price To a normal collagen powder I'd say but exciting nonetheless.

00:44:25: Then they

00:44:25: still come.

00:44:26: yeah What's another new kid on the block Right Now?

00:44:29: There are also collagen tripeptides.

00:44:32: That's basically also just hydrolyzed collagen.

00:44:35: It is making the rounds a bit right now and you can already get a few products out there, what are the rationale behind it?

00:44:40: Those are just tripeptides meaning three peptide chains.

00:44:43: so they're very small peptides.

00:44:45: The idea that you go by molecular weight lower because of their shorter chain And then more bioavailable than classic hydrolyze collagen.

00:44:54: But to be honest I haven't found any significant data that really confirms At least not in a way that can be taken seriously.

00:45:02: That means so I think you can still be cautious there, we don't have to go for these.

00:45:06: try peptides yet.

00:45:07: from my point of view There's no clear No clear no clear way forward.

00:45:12: But it may be that this is confirmed in the future right?

00:45:15: So just as you've heard of it You can already buy out their.

00:45:19: It's possible but as i said doesn't necessarily have to because currently We don't know much about.

00:45:25: There are a few.

00:45:26: you wouldn't actually think so with collagen because it's a protein the body makes itself, right?

00:45:30: there Are a few things.

00:45:32: You have to watch out for and one One of those things is kidney stones.

00:45:38: if That that probably only affects a very very small group of people.

00:45:42: But If someone is prone To calcium oxalate Stones I mean not all kidney stones or the same.

00:45:48: It must be said.

00:45:48: they're our many different types but one form and not uncommon form of them is calcium oxalate stones.

00:45:56: And if you're prone to that, then you should be careful with very high doses of collagen than you should probably stay somewhere in the range of five to ten grams rather than taking twenty thirty grams because otherwise it can affect oxalated metabolism and then lead two these kidney stones.

00:46:15: I actually had zero on my radar But that has to do with the breakdown of collagen, with hydroxyproline.

00:46:24: That then leads via a few different pathways.

00:46:29: it also puts a strain on the oxalate metabolism in the kidney.

00:46:33: so really interesting.

00:46:34: something else is The heavy metal contamination In collagen products?

00:46:46: For example, there's also this bulletproof collagen.

00:46:50: right that comes I think from Dave Asprey corner where you can make the bullet proof coffee.

00:46:55: There for example they measured elevated cadmium levels and in other products arsenic and lead were present.

00:47:04: so pay a little attention to look at your certificate if it isn't one.

00:47:12: And

00:47:13: yeah, I mean it makes sense right.

00:47:14: so many of the heavy metals accumulate over the years in bones.

00:47:19: Right and type one collagen is mainly obtained from bones at least to a very large extent.

00:47:27: Accordingly actually logical that you also have be careful with that topic.

00:47:32: Yeah above all You can't get lead out of bone anymore.

00:47:35: we humans have problem too.

00:47:36: once this led has incorporated itself into.

00:47:40: I mean, you can hardly detox that anymore.

00:47:42: Right?

00:47:43: Not really no it's possible but very tedious and difficult.

00:47:47: so probably wouldn't do with livestock.

00:47:49: let us put in this way

00:47:51: Exactly!

00:47:52: You have a pure lead issue less fish collagen or marine collagen then the mercury issue again.

00:48:00: So depending on fishing area is also something to pay.

00:48:04: attention.

00:48:05: That why check your certificate?

00:48:08: it's very common that contamination occurs, thats why its best to guide yourself a bit by that and should definitely be declared as well.

00:48:17: And something else just because i said at the beginning I always put my collagen in my coffee yeah but you shouldn't do that all the collagen gets destroyed.

00:48:27: thats nonsense.

00:48:28: uh because collagen peptides are heat stable.

00:48:31: they can withstand two hundred up to three hundred degrees Celsius.

00:48:35: So in that respect, a coffee at eighty ninety degrees or tea at eighty nineteen is no problem and that will not be irreversibly destroyed by so the body can no longer utilize it.

00:48:48: In that respect college and coffee are real thing.

00:48:52: definitely makes sense you do.

00:48:55: it dissolves hot drinks warm drink even better than cold drinks just dissolves faster.

00:49:02: In that respect with coffee, I think it's a pretty good option or also in tea.

00:49:07: So yeah the

00:49:08: coffee is nicer because you naturally just get more flavor from the coffee if You just dissolve it in water?

00:49:14: If it has no flavor.

00:49:15: The collagen powder Yeah i mean there are more pleasant things than you'd rather make a shake right like That.

00:49:21: so i think yeah, so it's Just not tasty.

00:49:24: It just tastes Like nothing and Is A bit sticky.

00:49:26: Right you just have to know that.

00:49:27: yeah

00:49:28: that's true exactly now.

00:49:30: There are also vegan and vegetarian options.

00:49:33: That's not collagen, unless it is this recombinant human collagen.

00:49:37: that something else.

00:49:39: but thats what we mean.

00:49:41: But there are collagen precursors, collagen boosters that combine a few amino acids And then also have vitamin C for example zinc astaxanthine.

00:49:52: What can you think of these products?

00:49:55: Exactly so...there definitely initial signs from studies.

00:49:59: they work relatively similarly well, right?

00:50:03: So basically the most important components of collagen are brought together.

00:50:06: That includes hydroxyproline glycine and something else.

00:50:09: I can't think of it right now.

00:50:11: Proline... Hydroxyprolene and Glycine.

00:50:13: Yes yes!

00:50:13: Something like that.

00:50:14: exactly proline too.

00:50:15: i forgot sometimes there's also a lysine in it.

00:50:20: In any case as I said There are interesting studies out there not many yet but It has similar effect.

00:50:25: in end doesn't make much difference But it's also not really clear yet.

00:50:30: That means you can definitely go for it if you definitely want a vegan product, um Also one where definitely no animal died because in the end these collagen powders are mainly from cattle and These cattle are dead Because otherwise You wouldn't get to the bones.

00:50:43: that means If you definitely don't want that then uh...you Can go for that?

00:50:48: And you will probably have A positive effect.

00:50:51: Whether that is equivalent now Is In my view Not yet conclusively resolved.

00:50:55: We Have To Be Honest About That but It'S Definitely A Cool Approach Very, very exciting and very promising.

00:51:01: That would again speak a bit for the fact that maybe protein powder is pretty good idea after all right?

00:51:07: Just from the logic of it because I mean these vegan collagen precursors.

00:51:13: they supply amino acids so building blocks to then produce collagen in the body...that's basically what protein powder does too!

00:51:20: So it actually be exciting.

00:51:22: not do three arm but four-arm study Here you have collagen here.

00:51:26: You have a vegan precursor than your protein powder and then you have a placebo.

00:51:30: that would practically be the college master study, Yeah, in case anyone out there is listening and has the means to implement something like that.

00:51:42: Let's go.

00:51:42: we're also happy to provide products.

00:51:44: That's no problem.

00:51:45: We

00:51:45: like to fund a little bit too even if it says industry funded on its.

00:51:49: yeah exactly Exactly so.

00:51:50: If you don't want that right?

00:51:51: There are certainly other options But it's definitely exciting.

00:51:54: It's been around for a few years now So not decades yet.

00:51:58: The first products came out three or four years ago.

00:52:02: In the end it's a bit of question these vegan products.

00:52:04: they are more expensive than an animal product.

00:52:07: So of course, an option for people who just eat a vegan or vegetarian diet?

00:52:12: For that, Of course, A great alternative in the end which is better.

00:52:18: you can't say there's no data right.

00:52:19: so There are No direct comparisons between between normal collagen and that respect.

00:52:24: Yeah You have to look at it That way too.

00:52:28: And with The Animal Sources we already said mostly It comes from cows but theres also Marine Collagen Which Comes From Fish.

00:52:35: I would say corals mainly, I think too.

00:52:37: Corals exactly and there to it's hard to say what is better now right?

00:52:43: Is that the marine or bovine which comes from cows happy as they say Irish grass-fed cows can't say The data isn't their?

00:52:53: No its not.

00:52:54: so.

00:52:54: As i said a large part of studies in my view was also done with bovine collagen if im not completely mistaken.

00:53:01: So In that respect you are going for the safest option But it makes.

00:53:07: It's definitely also plausible that the others are just as good, right?

00:53:10: That should probably be said as well.

00:53:11: Yeah

00:53:13: If we stay with the last little longevity nugget I'll say collagen.

00:53:17: you already said there is also glycin in their.

00:53:20: Glycin is per se Also and also an exciting Longevity molecule.

00:53:24: Right simply so.

00:53:25: collagen is always a glycin source for the body No matter if its animal based or if it's the precursor complexes The vegan vegetarian ones.

00:53:35: So in that respect, Glycent can also make a good contribution especially when it comes to the topic of sleep.

00:53:42: Glycine is very important there.

00:53:45: Today I'll let you do the wrap up at the end of this episode.

00:53:48: Oh!

00:53:48: Can i even do that?

00:53:50: You could do nice summary right now.

00:53:52: Well so what did we learn today or actually contribute specially for the topic about sleep?

00:53:57: Today I'll

00:53:58: let you do the wrap up at the end of episode.

00:54:00: Oh,

00:54:00: can i even Do that?

00:54:01: You Can do a nice summary right now.

00:54:02: Well

00:54:02: so what did we learn today?

00:54:04: or What Did We Actually Basically Summarize For Ourselves Again Today?

00:54:07: That Did Us Some Good Too Collagen There's Something To It.

00:54:10: So The Studies Are Consistent.

00:54:12: We Actually Also In My View Debunked What This New Metanalysis From Last Year Brought Up That it Actually Has No Effect At All.

00:54:17: That'S Not True.

00:54:18: So That's Simply not Correct.

00:54:20: Um in my view It Was also Simply Misrepresented In The Study Whether Militiously Or Not.

00:54:24: It was Definitely Just Not Really Constructive.

00:54:26: I Think You could have criticized.

00:54:29: Okay, there are too few non-industry funded studies okay?

00:54:31: I'll go with that.

00:54:32: That's true.

00:54:32: of course they're obviously only nine out of somehow several hundred right.

00:54:35: but um, that's also the only point of Criticism we have right now Right and that's just a bit of a shame in The other direction.

00:54:42: you have to say again It's not a product that will be a game changer for your life.

00:54:46: Now it has a clinically relevant effect But it's not huge either.

00:54:49: its measurable but not huge.

00:54:51: And uh, that why you shouldn't expect too much from it either.

00:54:54: Its very relevant for athletes who just regularly do very extensive sports, possibly also runners or cyclists less.

00:55:01: I would say runner is probably a classic example where you have many of those micro impacts.

00:55:08: and it's also very relevant for women who are in menopause and after because that when collagen production plummets especially for woman who decide not to do.

00:55:19: hormone replacement therapy somehow supply estrogen exogenously.

00:55:23: so maybe thats just.

00:55:26: Most importantly, we said skin joints recovery.

00:55:31: We urgently need a comparison with protein.

00:55:33: We still don't have that.

00:55:34: there's no study on that either.

00:55:35: It's a bit of a shame but yeah as I said as long as you Have an increased need which is also simply mechanistically explainable somehow by your lifestyle be it sports or Be it also your specific age then it definitely makes sense to take collagen.

00:55:50: if you're in your early twenties Yeah You can probably wait a few more years.

00:55:54: save the money invest in other things first

00:55:57: unless like with us it's sitting next to the coffee machine anyway and then you can just mix it

00:56:02: if the employer pays for a

00:56:03: different story.

00:56:04: A different premise no wonderful.

00:56:07: thank you so much for the summary.

00:56:08: i actually don't have anything else too.

00:56:10: add that either, requests for topics again, for different episodes including the collagen topic today.

00:56:27: That worked out quite well because we're also very interested in the topic ourselves.

00:56:31: so In that respect please let us know feel free to write.

00:56:36: We will look at it and then possibly put it on our roadmap For future topics.

00:56:40: Thank you for listening.

00:56:41: thank you for watching.

00:56:42: see you next time.

00:56:43: thanks max.

00:56:45: Thanks and bye.